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Yet another Executive Order from this administration that somehow
Doesn't apply to the commander and Chief



This guy is a real piece of work...




https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... tive-order

Chizzang wrote:Yet another Executive Order from this administration that somehow
Doesn't apply to the commander and Chief



This guy is a real piece of work...

phpBB [video]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... tive-order

I would love to get rid of the native Alaskan and other minority's business rules that really just become front companies with no real native Alaskans or minorities actually doing the work


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Rules don't apply to his wife or family either...Who the heck do they think they are? Kardashians?

He's going to change the rules on the H1B visa, which is arguably in need of a tweak

The conventional wisdom is that tech firms bring over workers (mostly from India) and pay them less than what they would pay Americans (believable, but there is a debate on the scale of the problem)

Word is Trump is planning a rule change that will require companies to show an inability to find an American worker first before approving a H1B petition. We already do this with the E class immigrant visas (another type of employment visa)

Many countries, both developed and underdeveloped do this - what remains to be seen is whether it really is a problem for American companies to find Americans to fill the jobs, or if it really is just a way to secure cheaper labor

H1B visa revision is actually something I'm on board with Trump.

The idea we can't find home own-grown workers for ANY job in America is completely absurd.

kalm wrote:The idea we can't find home own-grown workers for ANY job in America is completely absurd.

This.

Can't wait to see this reek havoc in the engineering industry. Lots of H1B's employed, and there damn well isn't a shortage of American engineers. This should will get interesting if this revision is done right.

I don't know the real answer, but I know a shipload of very smart people who claim that there really is a problem hiring tech types. There's no way to know for sure because the issue is politically polarized like everything else.

It would be interesting to go back and see the original legislative process behind the H visas in general. That was some time ago, when there were certainly more highly skilledAmericans available. I imagine there were many well heeled companies in lots of Congressional pockets in favor of the visas but that wouldn't be indicative of the why


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SDHornet wrote:

kalm wrote:The idea we can't find home own-grown workers for ANY job in America is completely absurd.

This.

Can't wait to see this reek havoc in the engineering industry. Lots of H1B's employed, and there damn well isn't a shortage of American engineers. This should will get interesting if this revision is done right.

*wreak

CID1990 wrote:I don't know the real answer, but I know a shipload of very smart people who claim that there really is a problem hiring tech types. There's no way to know for sure because the issue is politically polarized like everything else.

It would be interesting to go back and see the original legislative process behind the H visas in general. That was some time ago, when there were certainly more highly skilledAmericans available. I imagine there were many well heeled companies in lots of Congressional pockets in favor of the visas but that wouldn't be indicative of the why


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Probably about keeping salaries down.

SDHornet wrote:

kalm wrote:The idea we can't find home own-grown workers for ANY job in America is completely absurd.

This.

Can't wait to see this reek havoc in the engineering industry. Lots of H1B's employed, and there damn well isn't a shortage of American engineers. This should will get interesting if this revision is done right.

Agree with both of you. When I talk with co-workers from India, Pakistan or where ever they are from. It's amazing how little they are paid when working in their native lands and how low the cost of living is. Contracting firms make great deals with corporations thru the low cost of employees from abroad. Many American's have come to work on a Monday morning, to find that they have to train a non-American contractor to do their job at a reduced rate. From what I've seen, there is no difference in productivity, just a difference in salary.

Skjellyfetti wrote:H1B visa revision is actually something I'm on board with Trump.

You have an obsession with Spicer. Seek treatment.

CID1990 wrote:I don't know the real answer, but I know a shipload of very smart people who claim that there really is a problem hiring tech types. There's no way to know for sure because the issue is politically polarized like everything else.

It would be interesting to go back and see the original legislative process behind the H visas in general. That was some time ago, when there were certainly more highly skilledAmericans available. I imagine there were many well heeled companies in lots of Congressional pockets in favor of the visas but that wouldn't be indicative of the why


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From the broader perspective, if it's true, that's an "us" problem, the root of which should have been addressed and fixed years ago. If we truly lack domestic high skilled workers, what can we do to address that? Education and training perhaps? Or in the case of unskilled labor, disincentivize welfare as a competing option? Raise wages?

Nah...fuck it. Let's hire it out! We're America!

The root problem of the quality worker visa program is STOCK VALUE...
It's just that simple

Gil hit it on the head
Any further explanation will include smug ridicule and ultra-smug humiliation

Chizzang wrote:The root problem of the quality worker visa program is STOCK VALUE...
It's just that simple

Gil hit it on the head
Any further explanation will include smug ridicule and ultra-smug humiliation

Why have both parties supported it over the years?

There seems to be no data supporting the idea that H1B visas are needed and bad data supporting the idea that they aren't needed.

The issue is how "skilled tech workers" are counted. Are you going to count the CS grad that learned a high-level programming language not overly applicable in the workplace the same as someone with a graduate physics degree? Or a person with an evolutionary biology degree the same as someone with a Mechanical Engineering degree? One analysis I saw actually saw counted people with psychology degrees. Sorry, but some STEM degrees are just not as valuable as others.

You also have to consider graduate versus undergraduate degrees. You can go into a lot of science and engineering departments in colleges and there's a large number of foreign-born faculty. That's not because they don't want to pay decent salaries to faculty. It's because if you're really smart your earning potential is higher with 2 years of graduate training to go into accounting or wealth management or finance than it is to spend 4+ years of graduate study earning a science or engineering doctorate. If we really wanted to hire American faculty it would be cost more than even most liberals would want to spend on higher education.

I have a hard time trusting either side here, but have a strong hunch that while the H1B program is being abused and should be changed but not ended.

Pwns wrote: I have a hard time trusting either side here, but have a strong hunch that while the H1B program is being abused and should be changed but not ended.

That's exactly what's happening. No?

In the software industry, where this is being abused the most I think, most of the H1B visas aren't being given out to people with advanced study in subfields like machine learning, neural networks, etc. The people that get those H1B visas are the people that should be getting them - as there is a HUGE demand for these types of skills... and, definitely not enough Americans to fill them.

A lot of the Indian programmers that are getting H1B visas are getting jobs for entry level type programming jobs. And, there are plenty of Americans who could fill these jobs - but, they're more expensive.

No doubt that the H1B visa program is being abused. There is definitely still a need for it, though. But, it just needs to be more tightly controlled. That's all that's happening here...

FWIW, a lot of World Bank employees are H1B and they are brought here to work on issues from their home country/continent. So there are legit H1B workers here in the US. Can't tell if you guys are against all of them, or just some. It would be really hard to view each one on a case by case business to determine if a US citizen could fill the position or not. Sounds like you guys are for affirmative action.

Skjellyfetti wrote:

Pwns wrote: I have a hard time trusting either side here, but have a strong hunch that while the H1B program is being abused and should be changed but not ended.

That's exactly what's happening. No?

In the software industry, where this is being abused the most I think, most of the H1B visas aren't being given out to people with advanced study in subfields like machine learning, neural networks, etc. The people that get those H1B visas are the people that should be getting them - as there is a HUGE demand for these types of skills... and, definitely not enough Americans to fill them.

A lot of the Indian programmers that are getting H1B visas are getting jobs for entry level type programming jobs. And, there are plenty of Americans who could fill these jobs - but, they're more expensive.

No doubt that the H1B visa program is being abused. There is definitely still a need for it, though. But, it just needs to be more tightly controlled. That's all that's happening here...

There are corporations that are bringing in offshore contractors to replace high level American workers at a lower cost. Many of these highly skilled American have changed career fields or just retired because HR types are convinced these workers won't be happy taking less pay.

There are some people who are not in the corporate structure who argue that it is the H1B that is keeping America at the top of the tech ladder.

I forget the guy's name- he's that Japanese scientist with the long salt and pepper hair- I saw an interview with him where he explains that it is the H1B workers who are keeping our engineering and science sectors invigorated-

The H1B is a non-immigrant visa, but many if not most of these people get married or otherwise adjust status in the US and then naturalize. That is an advantage to us and a loss to their home countries.

It is hard to tell where the balance is, but I am all for keeping the Einsteins flowing- as long as there isnt an adverse effect on the economy. One thing is for sure: colleges are adding useless majors at the speed of light but you rarely see them start a new major in the math or engineering departments


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Skjellyfetti wrote:H1B visa revision is actually something I'm on board with Trump.

+1, if done the right way.

CID1990 wrote:There are some people who are not in the corporate structure who argue that it is the H1B that is keeping America at the top of the tech ladder.

I forget the guy's name- he's that Japanese scientist with the long salt and pepper hair- I saw an interview with him where he explains that it is the H1B workers who are keeping our engineering and science sectors invigorated-

The H1B is a non-immigrant visa, but many if not most of these people get married or otherwise adjust status in the US and then naturalize. That is an advantage to us and a loss to their home countries.

It is hard to tell where the balance is, but I am all for keeping the Einsteins flowing- as long as there isnt an adverse effect on the economy. One thing is for sure: colleges are adding useless majors at the speed of light but you rarely see them start a new major in the math or engineering departments


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Michio Kaku.

I don't know if university faculty are H1B workers, but I can promise that a lot of departments of engineering and science would have to shut down without hiring pipelines to China and other countries. I am quite sure there are private-sector jobs out there requiring science and engineering doctorates that are difficult to fill with Americans.

I hope Trump does not go overboard with this. This is one issue where the nativist Republicans and the progressive left join together to say "they terk urr gerbs". A lot of undeserved hate for the program.

Pwns wrote:

CID1990 wrote:There are some people who are not in the corporate structure who argue that it is the H1B that is keeping America at the top of the tech ladder.

I forget the guy's name- he's that Japanese scientist with the long salt and pepper hair- I saw an interview with him where he explains that it is the H1B workers who are keeping our engineering and science sectors invigorated-

The H1B is a non-immigrant visa, but many if not most of these people get married or otherwise adjust status in the US and then naturalize. That is an advantage to us and a loss to their home countries.

It is hard to tell where the balance is, but I am all for keeping the Einsteins flowing- as long as there isnt an adverse effect on the economy. One thing is for sure: colleges are adding useless majors at the speed of light but you rarely see them start a new major in the math or engineering departments


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Michio Kaku.

I don't know if university faculty are H1B workers, but I can promise that a lot of departments of engineering and science would have to shut down without hiring pipelines to China and other countries. I am quite sure there are private-sector jobs out there requiring science and engineering doctorates that are difficult to fill with Americans.

I hope Trump does not go overboard with this. This is one issue where the nativist Republicans and the progressive left join together to say "they terk urr gerbs". A lot of undeserved hate for the program.

Again...these are symptoms.

The greatest nation on earth should be able to provide its own engineers.

kalm wrote:

Pwns wrote:
Michio Kaku.

I don't know if university faculty are H1B workers, but I can promise that a lot of departments of engineering and science would have to shut down without hiring pipelines to China and other countries. I am quite sure there are private-sector jobs out there requiring science and engineering doctorates that are difficult to fill with Americans.

I hope Trump does not go overboard with this. This is one issue where the nativist Republicans and the progressive left join together to say "they terk urr gerbs". A lot of undeserved hate for the program.

Again...these are symptoms.

The greatest nation on earth should be able to provide its own engineers.

Maybe if we quite producing lawyers and liberal arts majors.....

houndawg wrote:

CID1990 wrote:I don't know the real answer, but I know a shipload of very smart people who claim that there really is a problem hiring tech types. There's no way to know for sure because the issue is politically polarized like everything else.

It would be interesting to go back and see the original legislative process behind the H visas in general. That was some time ago, when there were certainly more highly skilledAmericans available. I imagine there were many well heeled companies in lots of Congressional pockets in favor of the visas but that wouldn't be indicative of the why


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Probably about keeping salaries down.

If you're global you don't need visas, just send the engineering to other countries.