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I'm going to preface this post with the following disclaimer:

I have done little to no research on this and am shooting from the hip.

Having said that....


The "Fight for $15", is a movement to increase the minimum wage to $15. The basis is that for the most part fast food workers, e.g, are full time employees and can't afford to take care of their families on the current minimum wage. According to Payscale.com, the average wage for a fast food employee is $7.98/hr. That is $16,598/yr. I'm not going bother trying to figure out the take home pay after taxes, etc...

So, if you're a single man earning about $319 a week, you're having a tough time. That's not a living wage so you go on welfare. Now, the American public, is subsidizing your living expenses. Studies estimates that 52% of fast food workers are on welfare and that totals to $7B annually.

Spoiler: show

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... assistance UC-Berkeley is one of the universities behind the states so that should have some weight.

These days, though, 68 percent of fast-food workers are single or married adults who aren’t in school—and 26 percent are raising children.

Walmart, I know it's not fast food, is one of the largest consumers of welfare. The average Wal-Mart associates receives $1,000/mo. The avg FT wage at Wal-Mart is $8.81 or $15,576.

Spoiler: show

34 hrs is FT at Wal-Mart.

So, for the sake of argument, let's stick with the Wal-Mart associate that brings in, before taxes, $27,500 a year between his wage and public assistance. That is above the poverty threshold for a family of 4. And that's just one person.

If, the minimum wage were raised to $15/hr, what would be the outcome?

1) Would FT fast food and retail workers still qualify for public assistance?

2) Would an increase ultimately be better for America because less people would be on public assistance?

3) Would there be an increase in public assistance because people in these capacities are short sighted and will quit to continue receiving the hands out?

I think at a minimum we'll see prices increase and some layoffs.


I was thinking about it this morning and would, theoretically, assume that there would be a temporary increase in public assistance because smaller companies would have to lay off employees; there would be some price increases, even if it's only a few cents in same cases; but eventually less people would be on public assistance and the government could waste that money elsewhere.

I was talking to a gas station owner yesterday who was talking to a Balt. Co. police officer. (we were in line to use the bathroom. The old man was saying how McDonalds already has a "proto-type" store that is fully automated. Makes sense, I guess. I love the Royal Farms automated menu at the deli bar. It takes somekind of stupid to fuck up a clean well typed out order on a receipt. Cashiers are the first to go in fast food. The dummies running the fires and assembling stations can't be far behind.

Those dumb fucks trying to make a living in fast food are in for a rude awakening.

Shit, I made minimum wage bouncing in college. $15 is over double what I made. I'd sacrifice a night or two of sound sleep for a nice $15/hr paycheck!

andy7171 wrote:I was talking to a gas station owner yesterday who was talking to a Balt. Co. police officer. (we were in line to use the bathroom. The old man was saying how McDonalds already has a "proto-type" store that is fully automated. Makes sense, I guess. I love the Royal Farms automated menu at the deli bar. It takes somekind of stupid to fuck up a clean well typed out order on a receipt. Cashiers are the first to go in fast food. The dummies running the fires and assembling stations can't be far behind.

Those dumb fucks trying to make a living in fast food are in for a rude awakening.

Shit, I made minimum wage bouncing in college. $15 is over double what I made. I'd sacrifice a night or two of sound sleep for a nice $15/hr paycheck!

I didn't even think about automation but you make a good point. Mickey D's could save money by automating the store and only having a 1 or 2 people working to manage the machines. However, we don't know yet for the operating costs of those machines would be, vice a human working the fryer. We would have to assume, that company wide, it would cost less because you aren't having to pay taxes, insurance, training, etc... on the machine.


The SPINX gas station near my old house is like this. There are a few ladies in the back making the orders but the register is automated.

Good point, Andrew.

Ibanez wrote:

andy7171 wrote:I was talking to a gas station owner yesterday who was talking to a Balt. Co. police officer. (we were in line to use the bathroom. The old man was saying how McDonalds already has a "proto-type" store that is fully automated. Makes sense, I guess. I love the Royal Farms automated menu at the deli bar. It takes somekind of stupid to fuck up a clean well typed out order on a receipt. Cashiers are the first to go in fast food. The dummies running the fires and assembling stations can't be far behind.

Those dumb fucks trying to make a living in fast food are in for a rude awakening.

Shit, I made minimum wage bouncing in college. $15 is over double what I made. I'd sacrifice a night or two of sound sleep for a nice $15/hr paycheck!

I didn't even think about automation but you make a good point. Mickey D's could save money by automating the store and only having a 1 or 2 people working to manage the machines. However, we don't know yet for the operating costs of those machines would be, vice a human working fryer.


The SPINX gas station near my old house is like this. There are a few ladies in the back making the orders but the register is automated.

Good point, Andrew.

The self check out is great in grocery stores. Good way to avoid getting caught behind dumb fuck Independence Carders rolling through the line with three full carts only having to pear down their order by 2 carts when they find out they can get that much. It's just math, they can't do it.

andy7171 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:
I didn't even think about automation but you make a good point. Mickey D's could save money by automating the store and only having a 1 or 2 people working to manage the machines. However, we don't know yet for the operating costs of those machines would be, vice a human working fryer.


The SPINX gas station near my old house is like this. There are a few ladies in the back making the orders but the register is automated.

Good point, Andrew.

The self check out is great in grocery stores. Good way to avoid getting caught behind dumb fuck Independence Carders rolling through the line with three full carts only having to pear down their order by 2 carts when they find out they can get that much. It's just math, they can't do it.

Yup. That's a good example. I've noticed that it's mostly a 5-1 ratio. 5 self-checkout registers with 1 human manning a station.

Got into this exact argument with my sister the other day. My take: If you're an adult (questionable), attempting to raise children on $7.68/hr (or whatever minimum wage is in your state), you've PROBABLY made some pretty shitty decisions in life to be at that point. So, whose responsibility is it at that point? At what point does one have to lie in the bed they've made?

and p.s.: I wonder if Obama is proud about all the minimum wage and part-time jobs he's create during his tenure as king.

It might've been 10 years ago, but I recall people saying that the barcode was going to be replaced with a chip. And if you registered with, let's say Publix, you can shop and then pass through a machine that automatically reads all the chips and bills you. You never have to deal with a person.

Ibanez wrote:

andy7171 wrote: The self check out is great in grocery stores. Good way to avoid getting caught behind dumb fuck Independence Carders rolling through the line with three full carts only having to pear down their order by 2 carts when they find out they can get that much. It's just math, they can't do it.

Yup. That's a good example. I've noticed that it's mostly a 5-1 ratio. 5 self-checkout registers with 1 human manning a station.

Meh. The Giant nearest me has 5 self check outs and @8-10 manned cashiers.
Same ratio at the other 3-5 groceies near me. It really REALLY pisses people off if you go full week shopping and get into a self check out. ALMOST as bad as pissing people off with your Orange Independence card load. Almost.

Automation is certainly coming.

And, unfortunately, I don't think raising the minimum wage is an answer for these minimum wage jobs. It's simply a band-aid. And, it won't make any lasting difference.

I think a better solution is a "universal basic income." Giving everyone - regardless of income level a set wage every month and giving it equally according to cost of living.

By doing this we could eliminate social security, food stamps, and most other social safety nets. So, perhaps some conservatives could get on board (lol).

At, it has some precedence among our founders (Thomas Paine, Agrarian Jusice):
http://www.constitution.org/tp/agjustice.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarian_Justice

As I've mentioned before, 15/hour in Cheney, WA is not the same as 15/hour in Redmond, or NoVa, or PG, or Charlotte.

It's a cookie-cutter arbitrary number.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Automation is certainly coming.

And, unfortunately, I don't think raising the minimum wage is an answer for these minimum wage jobs. It's simply a band-aid. And, it won't make any lasting difference.

I think a better solution is a "universal basic income." Giving everyone - regardless of income level a set wage every month and giving it equally according to cost of living.

By doing this we could eliminate social security, food stamps, and most other social safety nets. So, perhaps some conservatives could get on board (lol).

At, it has some precedence among our founders (Thomas Paine, Agrarian Jusice):
http://www.constitution.org/tp/agjustice.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarian_Justice

Much better.

And don't forget, the investor class needs some skin in the game too.

Fuck self checkout at the grocery store. Too much work and no benefit to me as the customer.
I would rather throw my shit on the conveyor belt and let them scan and bag.

Ibanez wrote: According to Payscale.com, the average wage for a fast food employee is $7.98/hr. That is $16,598/yr. I'm not going bother trying to figure out the take home pay after taxes, etc...

It's $46,647 after tax breaks and subsidies.

CAA Flagship wrote:

Ibanez wrote: According to Payscale.com, the average wage for a fast food employee is $7.98/hr. That is $16,598/yr. I'm not going bother trying to figure out the take home pay after taxes, etc...

It's $46,647 after tax breaks and subsidies.

Is it? Show your work.

kalm wrote:As I've mentioned before, 15/hour in Cheney, WA is not the same as 15/hour in Redmond, or NoVa, or PG, or Charlotte.

It's a cookie-cutter arbitrary number.

Exactly. $15/hr is going to go further in most places not called LA, NYC, Washington DC, etc...

It's a band-aid.

AZGrizFan wrote:Got into this exact argument with my sister the other day. My take: If you're an adult (questionable), attempting to raise children on $7.68/hr (or whatever minimum wage is in your state), you've PROBABLY made some pretty shitty decisions in life to be at that point. So, whose responsibility is it at that point? At what point does one have to lie in the bed they've made?

This is pretty much how I feel.
Minimum wage is an introductory wage. My first job was at a pharmacy making minimum wage. I was 15 and stocking shelves. Wasn't rocket science. After a couple months there I got bumped up to the extremely difficult task of manning a checkout line. My wage almost doubled.

For what it's worth....
For my lawn biz, the introductory wage is $15/hour. I bump up wages quickly if a worker proves their worth (I had to fire someone yesterday because he was struggling lifting 50-pound bags of fert).

For my distillery it's also $15. Except for one shmuck who is always complaining he doesn't have enough money, but will call in sick because of a sniffle or a bad hair day, so we pay him $11/hour for being a pussy.

For my bar it's $7.50/hour, but they all make bank on tips, at least $200/night, usually $300-$400 cash.

CAA Flagship wrote:Fuck self checkout at the grocery store. Too much work and no benefit to me as the customer.
I would rather throw my shit on the conveyor belt and let them scan and bag.

Self checkout is awesome. Especially because it still seems many people are afraid of them (like yourself), just like people are afraid of the self check-in kiosks at the airport. I can't tell you how many times people have yelled at me at an airport for walking past a long line and going straight to a kiosk. Not my fault they don't know what the hell they are doing or, god forbid, actually take a risk and try to use the kiosk with the sign above it that says 'Skip the line and check-in here'

Ibanez wrote:

CAA Flagship wrote: It's $46,647 after tax breaks and subsidies.

Is it? Show your work.

$16,598 (not taxed)
Free meals at work = $4,126
Food stamps = $6,892
Free internet = $1,560
Free lunch for school children = $960
Public transit subsidy = $1,463
Unprosecuted petty theft = $874
Un-taxed winnings from crap games in alley = $86
Clothing handouts from churches = $2,284
Housing assistance = $11,804

There's no way these jobs will ever exist long term at much higher salaries. If we are insistent to have companies raise their pay rates substantially they will certainly cut back and begin to automate more than they do now. And the ones that do that better than others will thrive while there'll be companies that do it poorly and they will suffer and fade away. Darwinism at the corporate level is fine with me.

The root of the problem is that we do have way too many people that are trying to make a living doing such unskilled jobs. If it was just them then you could wave it off and say "tough break, they made bad choices in life and are now living with the consequences", but the real problem is they have children and those children didn't make those choices since they can't make choices yet. And since the world isn't going to get any less competitive anytime soon we really need to figure out how to deal with the unskilled and in some cases unmotivated who will keep falling behind as things get more and more competitive in the world.

CAA Flagship wrote:

Ibanez wrote: Is it? Show your work.

$16,598 (not taxed)
Free meals at work = $4,126
Food stamps = $6,892
Free internet = $1,560
Free lunch for school children = $960
Public transit subsidy = $1,463
Unprosecuted petty theft = $874
Un-taxed winnings from crap games in alley = $86
Clothing handouts from churches = $2,284
Housing assistance = $11,804

Thin air...all you had to say was you got to that number by pulling numbers out of thin air.

Ibanez wrote:

CAA Flagship wrote: $16,598 (not taxed)
Free meals at work = $4,126
Food stamps = $6,892
Free internet = $1,560
Free lunch for school children = $960
Public transit subsidy = $1,463
Unprosecuted petty theft = $874
Un-taxed winnings from crap games in alley = $86
Clothing handouts from churches = $2,284
Housing assistance = $11,804

Thin air...all you had to say was you got to that number by pulling numbers out of thin air.

What happened to your sense of adventure?

CAA Flagship wrote:

Ibanez wrote:

Thin air...all you had to say was you got to that number by pulling numbers out of thin air.

What happened to your sense of adventure?

Skjellyfetti wrote:Automation is certainly coming.

And, unfortunately, I don't think raising the minimum wage is an answer for these minimum wage jobs. It's simply a band-aid. And, it won't make any lasting difference.

I think a better solution is a "universal basic income." Giving everyone - regardless of income level a set wage every month and giving it equally according to cost of living.

By doing this we could eliminate social security, food stamps, and most other social safety nets. So, perhaps some conservatives could get on board (lol).

At, it has some precedence among our founders (Thomas Paine, Agrarian Jusice):
http://www.constitution.org/tp/agjustice.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarian_Justice

Sign me up now. I'm tired of waking up early!

andy7171 wrote:

Ibanez wrote: Yup. That's a good example. I've noticed that it's mostly a 5-1 ratio. 5 self-checkout registers with 1 human manning a station.

Meh. The Giant nearest me has 5 self check outs and @8-10 manned cashiers.
Same ratio at the other 3-5 groceies near me. It really REALLY pisses people off if you go full week shopping and get into a self check out. ALMOST as bad as pissing people off with your Orange Independence card load. Almost.

I have no problem pissing people off with a week's worth of shopping. It's better than waiting for a longer period of time in lines. It's much quicker for me to do the self checkout and that is all that matters.

Skjellyfetti wrote:I think a better solution is a "universal basic income." Giving everyone - regardless of income level a set wage every month and giving it equally according to cost of living.

By doing this we could eliminate social security, food stamps, and most other social safety nets. So, perhaps some conservatives could get on board (lol).

Say WHAT? How about we just get to keep more of what we actually ALREADY make?