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Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:42 am
by JoltinJoe
There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:05 am
by kalm
JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
Greatness...I get.
How do you share a part of some truths which you don't know about?
Isn't that just a fancy way of explaining tragedy with "God works in mysterious ways"?
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:13 am
by JoltinJoe
kalm wrote:
Greatness...I get.
How do you share a part of some truths which you don't know about?
You die ...
and you are freed from a physical existence that limits your perception to five ways, thereby freeing your reason to expand based on your new perceptions; or
You die, and that's it.
I think things that make no sense to us, or even are beyond our understanding, can become clear to us when were aren't so limited in what we perceive.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:14 am
by kalm
JoltinJoe wrote:kalm wrote:
Greatness...I get.
How do you share a part of some truths which you don't know about?
You die ...
and you are freed from a physical existence that limits your perception to five ways, thereby freeing your reason to expand based on your new perceptions; or
You die, and that's it.
I think things that make no sense to us, or even are beyond our understanding, can become clear to us when were aren't so limited in what we perceive.
Why cant we share in them while we're living?
bummer...
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:53 am
by SeattleGriz
kalm wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:
You die ...
and you are freed from a physical existence that limits your perception to five ways, thereby freeing your reason to expand based on your new perceptions; or
You die, and that's it.
I think things that make no sense to us, or even are beyond our understanding, can become clear to us when were aren't so limited in what we perceive.
Why cant we share in them while we're living?
bummer...
You do, whether you realize it or not.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:01 am
by SeattleGriz
JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
When I read the Bible and the lessons in there, I couldn't help but feel there was some universal moral truths we do not understand.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:07 am
by kalm
SeattleGriz wrote:kalm wrote:
Why cant we share in them while we're living?
bummer...
You do, whether you realize it or not.
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:09 am
by kalm
SeattleGriz wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
When I read the Bible and the lessons in there, I couldn't help but feel there was some universal moral truths we do not understand.
Like some of these? Let's see how many truths you know...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/heavy ... uaqXrRjD0Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:48 am
by houndawg
JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
I hope you're right but I doubt it.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:51 am
by houndawg
JoltinJoe wrote:kalm wrote:
Greatness...I get.
How do you share a part of some truths which you don't know about?
You die ...
and you are freed from a physical existence that limits your perception to five ways, thereby freeing your reason to expand based on your new perceptions; or
You die, and that's it.
I think things that make no sense to us, or even are beyond our understanding, can become clear to us when were aren't so limited in what we perceive.
Again, I hope you're right, but neuroscientists are leaning towards the so-called soul being part of the brain and not something that exists separately from the brain.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:08 am
by Grizalltheway
SeattleGriz wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
When I read the Bible and the lessons in there, I couldn't help but feel there was some universal moral truths we do not understand.
Well isn't that cute.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:26 am
by JoltinJoe
kalm wrote:SeattleGriz wrote:
You do, whether you realize it or not.
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
I think there's a big jump from this discussion to the Bible.
I think that jump should be made.
But that's another discussion for another day.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:27 am
by kalm
JoltinJoe wrote:kalm wrote:
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
I think there's a big jump from this discussion to the Bible.
I think that jump should be made.
But that's another discussion for another day.
agreed
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:02 am
by houndawg
JoltinJoe wrote:kalm wrote:
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
I think there's a big jump from this discussion to the Bible.
I think that jump should be made.
But that's another discussion for another day.
The cosmology of ancient goat herders?
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:24 am
by SeattleGriz
kalm wrote:SeattleGriz wrote:
You do, whether you realize it or not.
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
You just hate the free part.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:30 am
by Chizzang
JoltinJoe wrote:There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).
There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.
I think we do.
And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.
Joe,
There is also flat out lying deceit posturing and misinformation...
But I like where you're going with this
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:49 am
by kalm
SeattleGriz wrote:kalm wrote:
Knock it off, Free Man. I like where Joe is going with this and you're ruining that.
You just hate the free part.
Yeah
So
And?
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:57 am
by JoltinJoe
houndawg wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:
You die ...
and you are freed from a physical existence that limits your perception to five ways, thereby freeing your reason to expand based on your new perceptions; or
You die, and that's it.
I think things that make no sense to us, or even are beyond our understanding, can become clear to us when were aren't so limited in what we perceive.
Again, I hope you're right, but neuroscientists are leaning towards the so-called soul being part of the brain and not something that exists separately from the brain.
You say what you hope, and then what you belief through reason. It's always struck me as curious that hope and intuition co-exist with reason in mankind.
I doubt any creature on earth concerns itself so much about what is to happen to with him once he's dead. I've often wondered if our concern is a product of our reason, a product of our hope/intuition, or a product of both (I'm actually pretty sure it is a product of the third above).
Whatever. It is certainly something that makes us unique among the creatures on earth.
Why would we be privvy to the idea that these great, unknowable truths exist, when it was never creation's intent that we would share in them?
I've read up on the existence of the "so-called God spots" (for lack of a better term) in our mind, and it seems remarkable to me that perhaps multiple areas of our brains "light up" with activity when we think or discuss spiritual concerns. I know many neuroscientists tout this fact as proof that our belief in a God is merely "biologically based" -- a neuropsychological phenomenon, nothing more.
But why do we have brains that are "wired" this way? Why does it exist in creatures of superior reason? Why doesn't it exist in the brains of animals? And why does it still exist in such a highly evolved creature as man?
What it seems to boil down to, at least to me, is that we are either the most deluded creature on the face of the earth, or the most enlightened.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:03 am
by Chizzang
JoltinJoe wrote:houndawg wrote:
Again, I hope you're right, but neuroscientists are leaning towards the so-called soul being part of the brain and not something that exists separately from the brain.
You say what you hope, and then what you belief through reason. It's always struck me as curious that hope and intuition co-exist with reason in mankind.
I doubt any creature on earth concerns itself so much about what is to happen to with him once he's dead. I've often wondered if our concern is a product of our reason, a product of our hope/intuition, or a product of both (I'm actually pretty sure it is a product of the third above).
Whatever. It is certainly something that makes us unique among the creatures on earth.
Why would we be privvy to the idea that these great, unknowable truths exist, when it was never creation's intent that we would share in them?
I've read up on the existence of the "so-called God spots" (for lack of a better term) in our mind, and it seems remarkable to me that perhaps multiple areas of our brains "light up" with activity when we think or discuss spiritual concerns. I know many neuroscientists tout this fact as proof that our belief in a God is merely "biologically based" -- a neuropsychological phenomenon, nothing more.
But why do we have brains that are "wired" this way? Why does it exist in creatures of superior reason? Why doesn't it exist in the brains of animals? And why does it still exist in such a highly evolved creature as man?
What it seems to boil down to, at least to me, is that we are either the most deluded creature on the face of the earth, or the most enlightened.
Enlightenment is a kind of delusion...
Anything that includes hope is a type of delusion
as you already noted:
As far as we can tell we're the only animals that concern ourselves with hope
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:20 pm
by JohnStOnge
But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
Aside for the religion thing, this hits upon one of my pet "shake my head" phenomena. It's that thing where people say truth is relative, depends on your perspective, etc. Of course that's total nonsense. Truth is truth. It's independent of our perspective. It's not relative. It is what it is whether we know what it is or not. What we think about it makes no difference at all to what the reality is. Affects the way we respond. But that's it.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:46 pm
by Grizalltheway
JohnStOnge wrote:But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
Aside for the religion thing, this hits upon one of my pet "shake my head" phenomena. It's that thing where people say truth is relative, depends on your perspective, etc. Of course that's total nonsense. Truth is truth. It's independent of our perspective. It's not relative. It is what it is whether we know what it is or not. What we think about it makes no difference at all to what the reality is. Affects the way we respond. But that's it.
So who determines what truth is? Remember you claim to be an agnostic before you answer.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:35 pm
by CAA Flagship
Chizzang wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:
You say what you hope, and then what you belief through reason. It's always struck me as curious that hope and intuition co-exist with reason in mankind.
I doubt any creature on earth concerns itself so much about what is to happen to with him once he's dead. I've often wondered if our concern is a product of our reason, a product of our hope/intuition, or a product of both (I'm actually pretty sure it is a product of the third above).
Whatever. It is certainly something that makes us unique among the creatures on earth.
Why would we be privvy to the idea that these great, unknowable truths exist, when it was never creation's intent that we would share in them?
I've read up on the existence of the "so-called God spots" (for lack of a better term) in our mind, and it seems remarkable to me that perhaps multiple areas of our brains "light up" with activity when we think or discuss spiritual concerns. I know many neuroscientists tout this fact as proof that our belief in a God is merely "biologically based" -- a neuropsychological phenomenon, nothing more.
But why do we have brains that are "wired" this way? Why does it exist in creatures of superior reason? Why doesn't it exist in the brains of animals? And why does it still exist in such a highly evolved creature as man?
What it seems to boil down to, at least to me, is that we are either the most deluded creature on the face of the earth, or the most enlightened.
Enlightenment is a kind of delusion...
Anything that includes hope is a type of delusion
as you already noted:
As far as we can tell we're the only animals that concern ourselves with hope
Obama has proved this.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:10 am
by Ivytalk
Chizzang wrote:JoltinJoe wrote:
You say what you hope, and then what you belief through reason. It's always struck me as curious that hope and intuition co-exist with reason in mankind.
I doubt any creature on earth concerns itself so much about what is to happen to with him once he's dead. I've often wondered if our concern is a product of our reason, a product of our hope/intuition, or a product of both (I'm actually pretty sure it is a product of the third above).
Whatever. It is certainly something that makes us unique among the creatures on earth.
Why would we be privvy to the idea that these great, unknowable truths exist, when it was never creation's intent that we would share in them?
I've read up on the existence of the "so-called God spots" (for lack of a better term) in our mind, and it
seems remarkable to me that perhaps multiple areas of our brains "light up" with activity when we think or discuss spiritual concerns. I know many neuroscientists tout this fact as proof that our belief in a God is merely "biologically based" -- a neuropsychological phenomenon, nothing more.
But why do we have brains that are "wired" this way? Why does it exist in creatures of superior reason? Why doesn't it exist in the brains of animals? And why does it still exist in such a highly evolved creature
as man?
What it seems to boil down to, at least to me, is that we are either the most deluded creature on the face of the earth, or the most enlightened.
Enlightenment is a kind of delusion...
Anything that includes hope is a type of delusion
as you already noted:
As far as we can tell we're the only animals that concern ourselves with hope
I disagree. Dogs are capable of hope: they hope you'll pet them, feed them, throw them a ball...
Cats, OTOH, don't give a shit.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:39 am
by houndawg
JohnStOnge wrote:But those truths exist whether we know them or not.
Aside for the religion thing, this hits upon one of my pet "shake my head" phenomena. It's that thing where people say truth is relative, depends on your perspective, etc. Of course that's total nonsense. Truth is truth.
It's independent of our perspective. It's not relative. It is what it is whether we know what it is or not. What we think about it makes no difference at all to what the reality is. Affects the way we respond. But that's it.
That's what Newton thought about physics. He was wrong.
Re: Belief v. Non-Belief
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:28 pm
by JohnStOnge
So who determines what truth is? Remember you claim to be an agnostic before you answer.
I don't see that as difficult at all. No one determines what truth is. It is what it is. Each of us can try to understand what it is and there are many situations in which it can be established. Like if my freezer is at 0 degrees F and I tell you that if I put a glass of water in it over night it will be ice when I take it out that is the truth. We can test that over and over again and it will always work.
Other things are not so certain. But the point is, whatever the truth is, what we think about it isn't what makes it the truth. It's not a matter of opinion or perspective. There is no such thing as one person's view of what the truth is being different than another's under circumstances where both views are equally valid. That's liberal/progressive nonsense that has unfortunately taken hold as being believed by a lot of people.