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...and the shit hits the fan. Gray's injuries were neither intentional nor the result of negligence.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... -seatbelt/

BTW, Baltimore Sun released a verbose rehash of the investigation around 3 am, yet declined to discuss the autopsy...complying with DA Mosby's gag order request.



EDIT: Update. The Baltimore Sun DID post autopsy results at 4:32 am, but in a "paid subscribers" section not publicly viewable.

While bystanders captured his arrest on video, showing Gray moaning for help, the autopsy concluded that Gray suffered no injuries to suggest a neck hold or stemming from physical restraint. Assistant medical examiner Carol H. Allan noted that Gray could be seen bearing weight on his legs and speaking as he was loaded into the van.

I've been saying that since Day 1...and I only saw it on video.

No need to revisit this. We finally have our racial outrage story in the AME shootings and don't need to grasp at straws anymore.

Kinda thinkin' the Baltimore rioters should apologize to the police and offer to repair/replace the property they damaged.

How can they expect "justice" if they are unwilling to walk the walk?

I chuckled when I read the "source" of this article. Even Fox News hasn't picked up on this.

#gethestoryright

I have never thought there was foul play on this one. We will probably have to wait for the trials to know for sure.

The DA has already botched this case so it should be entertaining to say the least.

bluehenbillk wrote:I chuckled when I read the "source" of this article. Even Fox News hasn't picked up on this.

#gethestoryright

They read the sun article on WBAL this morning.

I'm sorry I was reacting to the notion that this report would somehow exonerate the officers charged. Probably doesn't help them at all.

travelinman67 wrote:Gray's injuries were neither intentional nor the result of negligence.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... paper-says

The death of Baltimore man Freddie Gray was a homicide due to a "high-energy injury" to his spine, which resulted from "acts of omission" by the police, according to The Baltimore Sun. The newspaper cites a copy of the unreleased autopsy report from the state medical examiner's office...

"Safety equipment was available but not used. Therefore, it was not an unforeseen event (a medico-legal definition of an accident) that a vulnerable individual was injured during operation of the vehicle, and that without prompt medical attention, the injury would prove fatal."

89Hen wrote:

travelinman67 wrote:Gray's injuries were neither intentional nor the result of negligence.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... paper-says

The death of Baltimore man Freddie Gray was a homicide due to a "high-energy injury" to his spine, which resulted from "acts of omission" by the police, according to The Baltimore Sun. The newspaper cites a copy of the unreleased autopsy report from the state medical examiner's office...

Yeah, I don't see the point of this thread as the story is basically what we've been led to believe - the cops put him in the back of a van without safely securing him, they gave him the "nickel cent ride" or a ride where he was going to be thrown around in the back of the vehicle, he got severly injured as a result, they didn't tend to him immediately, and he consequently died. So the cops screwed up, a guy died, and now those same cops are looking at long stints in prison - yup, just what we thought.

GannonFan wrote: Yeah, I don't see the point of this thread as the story is basically what we've been led to believe - the cops put him in the back of a van without safely securing him, they gave him the "nickel cent ride" or a ride where he was going to be thrown around in the back of the vehicle, he got severly injured as a result, they didn't tend to him immediately, and he consequently died. So the cops screwed up, a guy died, and now those same cops are looking at long stints in prison - yup, just what we thought.

^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep this

GannonFan wrote:

89Hen wrote: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... paper-says

Yeah, I don't see the point of this thread as the story is basically what we've been led to believe - the cops put him in the back of a van without safely securing him, they gave him the "nickel cent ride" or a ride where he was going to be thrown around in the back of the vehicle, he got severly injured as a result, they didn't tend to him immediately, and he consequently died. So the cops screwed up, a guy died, and now those same cops are looking at long stints in prison - yup, just what we thought.

Yup - adds credence to the guilt of the police.

GannonFan wrote:

89Hen wrote: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... paper-says

Yeah, I don't see the point of this thread as the story is basically what we've been led to believe - the cops put him in the back of a van without safely securing him, they gave him the "nickel cent ride" or a ride where he was going to be thrown around in the back of the vehicle, he got severly injured as a result, they didn't tend to him immediately, and he consequently died. So the cops screwed up, a guy died, and now those same cops are looking at long stints in prison - yup, just what we thought.

He received the fatal injury sometime between the second and fifth stop, so, all of the initial arresting officers have been exonerated.
Next, failure to seat belt him in was an act of omission. It will be for the jury to decide whether that act rises to the level of negligence...which will require the jury to weigh if the act is consistent with past practices by the trade (I.e., is it common for prisoners in transport vans to be seatbelted).

Finally, did the transporting officer take reasonable steps to seek medical attention once he determined there was a problem.

Absent evidence of gross negligence, reckless indifference, or malice, there won't be a criminal conviction.

Civil conviction and judgement, sure! But not a criminal conviction.

Have Andy let you know the racial composition of Baltimore and what a "jury of peers" will look like in this case....

Watch the non-conviction happen, dimestore lawyers

Once again a prosecutor allows judgment to be trumped by politics and pandering

you charge people with what you can convict them on - not "depraved heart" English common law bullcrap

CID1990 wrote:Watch the non-conviction happen, dimestore lawyers

Once again a prosecutor allows judgment to be trumped by politics and pandering

you charge people with what you can convict them on - not "depraved heart" English common law bullcrap

I believe the original charges were "meany-head", "butt-face" and "fart knocker." But don't quote me on that, it's not from a reliable source.

Ibanez wrote:

CID1990 wrote:Watch the non-conviction happen, dimestore lawyers

Once again a prosecutor allows judgment to be trumped by politics and pandering

you charge people with what you can convict them on - not "depraved heart" English common law bullcrap

I believe the original charges were "meany-head", "butt-face" and "fart knocker." But don't quote me on that, it's not from a reliable source.

NPR or NYT?

travelinman67 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:
I believe the original charges were "meany-head", "butt-face" and "fart knocker." But don't quote me on that, it's not from a reliable source.

NPR or NYT?

Fox News quoting La'tarvias Jenkins.

travelinman67 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Yeah, I don't see the point of this thread as the story is basically what we've been led to believe - the cops put him in the back of a van without safely securing him, they gave him the "nickel cent ride" or a ride where he was going to be thrown around in the back of the vehicle, he got severly injured as a result, they didn't tend to him immediately, and he consequently died. So the cops screwed up, a guy died, and now those same cops are looking at long stints in prison - yup, just what we thought.

He received the fatal injury sometime between the second and fifth stop, so, all of the initial arresting officers have been exonerated.
Next, failure to seat belt him in was an act of omission. It will be for the jury to decide whether that act rises to the level of negligence...which will require the jury to weigh if the act is consistent with past practices by the trade (I.e., is it common for prisoners in transport vans to be seatbelted).

Finally, did the transporting officer take reasonable steps to seek medical attention once he determined there was a problem.

Absent evidence of gross negligence, reckless indifference, or malice, there won't be a criminal conviction.

Civil conviction and judgement, sure! But not a criminal conviction.

Please, there will be multiple criminal convictions here. The initial arresting officers haven't been exonerated of anything, the act of omission was a conscious act with the intent to injure, and they've already said they didn't get him medical attention by the time he was hurt (you already said there were stops after he was injured). I'm sure there might be one or two of the officers that do escape conviction, but there will be multiple bad cops going to jail for this, as they should. They put the guy in a situation with the hopes of injuring him, and it went further than they expected and he died. They will do time.

GannonFan wrote:

travelinman67 wrote:
He received the fatal injury sometime between the second and fifth stop, so, all of the initial arresting officers have been exonerated.
Next, failure to seat belt him in was an act of omission. It will be for the jury to decide whether that act rises to the level of negligence...which will require the jury to weigh if the act is consistent with past practices by the trade (I.e., is it common for prisoners in transport vans to be seatbelted).

Finally, did the transporting officer take reasonable steps to seek medical attention once he determined there was a problem.

Absent evidence of gross negligence, reckless indifference, or malice, there won't be a criminal conviction.

Civil conviction and judgement, sure! But not a criminal conviction.

Please, there will be multiple criminal convictions here. The initial arresting officers haven't been exonerated of anything, the act of omission was a conscious act with the intent to injure, and they've already said they didn't get him medical attention by the time he was hurt (you already said there were stops after he was injured). I'm sure there might be one or two of the officers that do escape conviction, but there will be multiple bad cops going to jail for this, as they should. They put the guy in a situation with the hopes of injuring him, and it went further than they expected and he died. They will do time.

Um, the investigators concluded the fatal injury occurred sometime between the second and fifth stop, and the other arrestee in back has stated Gray was screaming and banging around up to the fourth stop...

...sooo....

...how could the initial arresting bike/foot patrol officers be responsible?

Gray was standing unassisted at the back of the van as he was placed inside...a physical act several doctors have said would have been impossible with the type of fatal injury he sustained.

There are really two relevant issues:
1. Was his injury self-inflicted or caused by vehicle movement?
2. Was the transporting officer's failure to seatbelt Gray an egregious act rising to the level of negligence?

My hip-shot guess is there will only be one officer facing a conviction, if any.

BTW, much of the investigation has been withheld from the press. Leaks indicate Gray fled to the housing project, ditched some form of contraband (drugs/gun), then returned outside to taunt the officers.

Not that this theory would change (justify) the outcome, but like the Michael Brown shooting, the narrative that Gray was some saint indiscriminately harassed and abused by police, is a myth.

I'm wondering why the fact he had alcohol, marijuana and heroin in his system isn't getting any place.

andy7171 wrote:I'm wondering why the fact he had alcohol, marijuana and heroin in his system isn't getting any place.

Irrelevant. That's a prerequisite to qualifying for Section 8 housing.

travelinman67 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Please, there will be multiple criminal convictions here. The initial arresting officers haven't been exonerated of anything, the act of omission was a conscious act with the intent to injure, and they've already said they didn't get him medical attention by the time he was hurt (you already said there were stops after he was injured). I'm sure there might be one or two of the officers that do escape conviction, but there will be multiple bad cops going to jail for this, as they should. They put the guy in a situation with the hopes of injuring him, and it went further than they expected and he died. They will do time.

Um, the investigators concluded the fatal injury occurred sometime between the second and fifth stop, and the other arrestee in back has stated Gray was screaming and banging around up to the fourth stop...

...sooo....

...how could the initial arresting bike/foot patrol officers be responsible?

Gray was standing unassisted at the back of the van as he was placed inside...a physical act several doctors have said would have been impossible with the type of fatal injury he sustained.

There are really two relevant issues:
1. Was his injury self-inflicted or caused by vehicle movement?
2. Was the transporting officer's failure to seatbelt Gray an egregious act rising to the level of negligence?

My hip-shot guess is there will only be one officer facing a conviction, if any.

BTW, much of the investigation has been withheld from the press. Leaks indicate Gray fled to the housing project, ditched some form of contraband (drugs/gun), then returned outside to taunt the officers.

Not that this theory would change (justify) the outcome, but like the Michael Brown shooting, the narrative that Gray was some saint indiscriminately harassed and abused by police, is a myth.

The arresting officers put him in the van and didn't secure him or correct the transporting officer to secure him. They had a responsibility to keep this guy safe during the transportation, either from himself or from the damage inside the vehicle, and they didn't do it and they'll spend time in jail because of it.

Doesn't matter to me what drugs he had in his possession or things he dumped. Doesn't matter to me that this guy was a loser and a depraved individual. Once they placed him in that van it was the police's responsibility to get him where they were taking him safely and they didn't do it and they consciously didn't do it. They should and will be punished for this lack of fulfilling the duty as police officers. Even if the guy that died was worthless.

andy7171 wrote:I'm wondering why the fact he had alcohol, marijuana and heroin in his system isn't getting any place.

Is it any less of a crime if you negligently cause the death of a drugged up individual compared to someone who wasn't on drugs? Nothing in the autopsy said he died of drug use. He died because they put him in a van without restraints and drove him around so that he bounced around the inside of the van a few times. Unfortunately for the cops, rather than some bruises the guy died. They took a risk and this time it didn't work out for them. They can stew on that while they spend a few years in jail. Killing a bum, even inadvertently, isn't less of a crime because the guy was a bum.

GannonFan wrote:

travelinman67 wrote:
Um, the investigators concluded the fatal injury occurred sometime between the second and fifth stop, and the other arrestee in back has stated Gray was screaming and banging around up to the fourth stop...

...sooo....

...how could the initial arresting bike/foot patrol officers be responsible?

Gray was standing unassisted at the back of the van as he was placed inside...a physical act several doctors have said would have been impossible with the type of fatal injury he sustained.

There are really two relevant issues:
1. Was his injury self-inflicted or caused by vehicle movement?
2. Was the transporting officer's failure to seatbelt Gray an egregious act rising to the level of negligence?

My hip-shot guess is there will only be one officer facing a conviction, if any.

BTW, much of the investigation has been withheld from the press. Leaks indicate Gray fled to the housing project, ditched some form of contraband (drugs/gun), then returned outside to taunt the officers.

Not that this theory would change (justify) the outcome, but like the Michael Brown shooting, the narrative that Gray was some saint indiscriminately harassed and abused by police, is a myth.

The arresting officers put him in the van and didn't secure him or correct the transporting officer to secure him. They had a responsibility to keep this guy safe during the transportation, either from himself or from the damage inside the vehicle, and they didn't do it and they'll spend time in jail because of it.

Doesn't matter to me what drugs he had in his possession or things he dumped. Doesn't matter to me that this guy was a loser and a depraved individual. Once they placed him in that van it was the police's responsibility to get him where they were taking him safely and they didn't do it and they consciously didn't do it. They should and will be punished for this lack of fulfilling the duty as police officers. Even if the guy that died was worthless.

It is negligence, but for it to be criminal negligence there has to be mal intent, which in this case (as with all negligence cases) will be next to impossible to prove. All these defendants have to do is get a bench trial and the whole thing goes down in flames. With a sympathetic jury they MIGHT get a conviction, but without a change of venue they would be foolish not to ask for a bench trial.

Now they will certainly lose their asses in the civil case because intent doesnt factor there.