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Did we call them airstikes back in the day?

andy7171 wrote:Did we call them airstikes back in the day?

Oh yeah. P-47 Thunderbolts. They were the A-10s of the day.

CitadelGrad wrote:

andy7171 wrote:Did we call them airstikes back in the day?

Oh yeah. P-47 Thunderbolts. They were the A-10s of the day.

Interesting. I was really into WWII stuff growing up. I thought Mustangs were the predominant support for ground troops.
Cool stuff.

andy7171 wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
Oh yeah. P-47 Thunderbolts. They were the A-10s of the day.

Interesting. I was really into WWII stuff growing up. I thought Mustangs were the predominant support for ground troops.
Cool stuff.

Mustangs were the F-15's of the day. They were used primarily to escort bombers on long-range missions over Germany, as they had extremely long range and were superior to the German FW-190s and Me-109s. The P-38 Lightning was used in a similar role.

Baddest plane in WWII:

Corsair? Go Navy!

AZGrizFan wrote:Baddest plane in WWII:

AZGrizFan wrote:Baddest plane in WWII:

Best model I built in my younger days...

Col Hogan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:Baddest plane in WWII:

Best model I built in my younger days...

The first model I ever built was a P-38 Lightning. I built a F-4U Corsair not long after that.

The Corsair was very good, but it had a lower kill ration than the P-51, P-38 and F-6F Hellcat. Either the Corsair wasn't as good as these other fighters or Marine pilots weren't as good as their Navy and Army Air Corps counterparts.

Fucking models were awesome. Kids these days...

CitadelGrad wrote:

Col Hogan wrote:
Best model I built in my younger days...

The first model I ever built was a P-38 Lightning. I built a F-4U Corsair not long after that.

The Corsair was very good, but it had a lower kill ration than the P-51, P-38 and F-6F Hellcat. Either the Corsair wasn't as good as these other fighters or Marine pilots weren't as good as their Navy and Army Air Corps counterparts.

You can't really draw any broad conclusions like that. I think this post on a WWII enthusiast site sort of summarizes it well:

Really, to do a worthwhile assessment, one should have a kill ratio table laid out by month or quarter. Otherwise you have an unfair comparison. The Hellcat's kill ratio benefited greatly from the Wildcat pilots before that honed the tactics used by later aircraft, for example. Since the Japanese tended to keep their best pilots in the fight, the later fighters also benefited from a "lower quality" opponent. Looking at the war in totality gives a false assessment.

CitadelGrad wrote:

andy7171 wrote: Interesting. I was really into WWII stuff growing up. I thought Mustangs were the predominant support for ground troops.
Cool stuff.

Mustangs were the F-15's of the day. They were used primarily to escort bombers on long-range missions over Germany, as they had extremely long range and were superior to the German FW-190s and Me-109s. The P-38 Lightning was used in a similar role.

True with all versions of the 109 and with the FW-190A, which 1st saw service in late 1941. But the last 190 model, the upgraded FW 190D, which didn't see combat until Sept 44', was probably as good as the P-51. Problem for the Krouts at that point was they were vastly outnumbered and had lost the majority of their best pilots.

BDKJMU wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
Mustangs were the F-15's of the day. They were used primarily to escort bombers on long-range missions over Germany, as they had extremely long range and were superior to the German FW-190s and Me-109s. The P-38 Lightning was used in a similar role.

True with all versions of the 109 and with the FW-190A, which 1st saw service in late 1941. But the last 190 model, the upgraded FW 190D, which didn't see combat until Sept 44', was probably as good as the P-51. Problem for the Krouts at that point was they were vastly outnumbered and had lost the majority of their best pilots.

Yep the D model Butcher Bird and the later Ta-152 (a very elegant but deadly high alt interceptor) were arguably as good as the P51D, and in some categories they were better.

Military aviation from 1912 until around 1950 is my favorite hobby- we used to get the occasional warbird visit to our runway on the family farm and as a kid I was luck enough to get a ride in a P-51D. Ive also had a ride from Charleston to Beaufort and back in a B-24. I basically debased myself like a cheap crack whore for that.

I like also seeing the comments on the P-47 in here. Not many people know that the P-47 had its design pedigree with a genius Russian emigre named Alexander Seversky. He designed several airframes that won speed prizes during the Bendix races. One characteristic pf his airframes was the teardrop fuselage shape on his fighters. Seversky produced the P-35 which is basically a smaller version of the Jug. The board of his company threw him out just before the start of WWII and renamed the company the Republic Aircraft Co. Seversky's design apprentice, another Russian named Alex Kartveli, designed the Republic P-47 but its Seversky inspired airframe was unmistakable.

The P-47 was designed as a pure fighter but it found a niche in close air support because it was very tough, and could carry a large payload. I believe it could carry as much as 4500 lbs of ordnance, maybe more. It also had 8x .50 cal guns instead of the typical 6 found on most US fighters.

It was also very fast- in fact it was one of the fastest production WWII piston fighters in the world in a dive, and rumor has it that one went over 700 mph in a dive in Europe. It wasnt the prettiest plane but it was one of the best all-round multirole fighters.

BDKJMU wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
Mustangs were the F-15's of the day. They were used primarily to escort bombers on long-range missions over Germany, as they had extremely long range and were superior to the German FW-190s and Me-109s. The P-38 Lightning was used in a similar role.

True with all versions of the 109 and with the FW-190A, which 1st saw service in late 1941. But the last 190 model, the upgraded FW 190D, which didn't see combat until Sept 44', was probably as good as the P-51. Problem for the Krouts at that point was they were vastly outnumbered and had lost the majority of their best pilots.

Good post. They got so low that on D-day there weren't many planes protecting the coast. IIrc, there was one plane that buzzed Omaha Beach and that was it. And the Germans were conscripting old men and young boys to be pilots.

Ibanez wrote:And the Germans were conscripting old men and young boys...

That's disgusting Ibanez!


No wait, sorry, I was thinking of circumsizing. My bad.

93henfan wrote:

Ibanez wrote:And the Germans were conscripting old men and young boys...

That's disgusting Ibanez!


No wait, sorry, I was thinking of circumsizing. My bad.

That's what I meant to post. Damn autocorrect.

Ibanez wrote:

BDKJMU wrote:
True with all versions of the 109 and with the FW-190A, which 1st saw service in late 1941. But the last 190 model, the upgraded FW 190D, which didn't see combat until Sept 44', was probably as good as the P-51. Problem for the Krouts at that point was they were vastly outnumbered and had lost the majority of their best pilots.

Good post. They got so low that on D-day there weren't many planes protecting the coast. IIrc, there was one plane that buzzed Omaha Beach and that was it. And the Germans were conscripting old men and young boys to be pilots.

I should have added in addition to being vastly outnumbered and having lost the majority of their best pilots by late 44' had very limited training due to fuel shortages.

True about the Luftwaffe on D-day. There weren't hardly any Luftwaffe fighter defense available in France, as most had either been destroyed or pulled back to Germany to defend against the allied bomber offensive on targets within Germany.

Speaking of D-Day, can't find the quote, but I remember seeing some documentary on the Military or Military History Channel where Adolf Galland said something along the lines of had Hitler's not foolishly insisted the 262 be developed as a fighter bomber, which delayed its development, and had the Me-262 gone into production in 1943 as a pure fighter/interceptor, and 100 operational 262s been available on D-Day, the invasion could have been stopped.

There's also Galland's claim that if they'd had 300 262s operational at anytime during 44' they could have stopped the allied bomber offensive. But the 262 also had initial engine problems, 1st design & then due to material shortages, that delayed it being produced in any numbers until after the Normandy invasion, so even without Hitlers interference in 43' the Germans might not have been able to field larger #s of 262s earlier.

BDKJMU wrote:

Ibanez wrote: Good post. They got so low that on D-day there weren't many planes protecting the coast. IIrc, there was one plane that buzzed Omaha Beach and that was it. And the Germans were conscripting old men and young boys to be pilots.

I should have added in addition to being vastly outnumbered and having lost the majority of their best pilots by late 44' had very limited training due to fuel shortages.

True about the Luftwaffe on D-day. There weren't hardly any Luftwaffe fighter defense available in France, as most had either been destroyed or pulled back to Germany to defend against the allied bomber offensive on targets within Germany.

Speaking of D-Day, can't find the quote, but I remember seeing some documentary on the Military or Military History Channel where Adolf Galland said something along the lines of had Hitler's not foolishly insisted the 262 be developed as a fighter bomber, which delayed its development, and had the Me-262 gone into production in 1943 as a pure fighter/interceptor, and 100 operational 262s been available on D-Day, the invasion could have been stopped.

There's also Galland's claim that if they'd had 300 262s operational at anytime during 44' they could have stopped the allied bomber offensive. But the 262 also had initial engine problems, 1st design & then due to material shortages, that delayed it being produced in any numbers until after the Normandy invasion, so even without Hitlers interference in 43' the Germans might not have been able to field larger #s of 262s earlier.

Adolf Galland was wrong in his assessment- there were no 300 aircraft ever assembled that could have stopped the bombing campaign of Germany.

The Me 262 also was VERY vulnerable around its airbases. This was a result of its primitive jet engines which were slow to spool up. It was extremely vulnerable to Allied fighters at every point inside its takeoff and landing profile.

The Me 262 was also vulnerable in a dogfight. It could not turn inside a P-51 or P-38 in level flight at high altitude.

CitadelGrad wrote:The Me 262 was also vulnerable in a dogfight. It could not turn inside a P-51 or P-38 in level flight at high altitude.

It was 100mph faster than a 51.

Hitler fvcked up and wanted it to be a fighter/bomber. As a pure fighter it had 100+ kills against bomber formations and didn't see its first combat until the second half of 1944.

Chizzang wrote:

But would they be any match for a militia from Idaho?

houndawg wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:The Me 262 was also vulnerable in a dogfight. It could not turn inside a P-51 or P-38 in level flight at high altitude.

It was 100mph faster than a 51.

Hitler fvcked up and wanted it to be a fighter/bomber. As a pure fighter it had 100+ kills against bomber formations and didn't see its first combat until the second half of 1944.

Probably the biggest problem the Nazis had was that they didn't make a few great weapons for mass production. They were always trying to make bigger and better guns, tanks, planes, artillery....this was such a drag on resources and production. Make something that works, like the Mustang and make millions of them. Hitlers quest for the über weapon was just one of the many reasons they were screwed.

If you want a good read, read up on the Soviet war industry during this time. Their tank factories were incredible.

CID1990 wrote:

BDKJMU wrote:
I should have added in addition to being vastly outnumbered and having lost the majority of their best pilots by late 44' had very limited training due to fuel shortages.

True about the Luftwaffe on D-day. There weren't hardly any Luftwaffe fighter defense available in France, as most had either been destroyed or pulled back to Germany to defend against the allied bomber offensive on targets within Germany.

Speaking of D-Day, can't find the quote, but I remember seeing some documentary on the Military or Military History Channel where Adolf Galland said something along the lines of had Hitler's not foolishly insisted the 262 be developed as a fighter bomber, which delayed its development, and had the Me-262 gone into production in 1943 as a pure fighter/interceptor, and 100 operational 262s been available on D-Day, the invasion could have been stopped.

There's also Galland's claim that if they'd had 300 262s operational at anytime during 44' they could have stopped the allied bomber offensive. But the 262 also had initial engine problems, 1st design & then due to material shortages, that delayed it being produced in any numbers until after the Normandy invasion, so even without Hitlers interference in 43' the Germans might not have been able to field larger #s of 262s earlier.

Adolf Galland was wrong in his assessment- there were no 300 aircraft ever assembled that could have stopped the bombing campaign of Germany.

The Me 262 also was VERY vulnerable around its airbases. This was a result of its primitive jet engines which were slow to spool up. It was extremely vulnerable to Allied fighters at every point inside its takeoff and landing profile.

Well, maybe the daytime bombing. In Aug-Oct 43' the 8th AF suffered such heavy, unsustainable losses that they suspended daytime raids over Germany for 5 months until they had sufficient #s of P-51s available for long range escort. In 44' the # of bombers available greatly increased while the losses went down. From what I read at the time of D-Day there were about 13k allied aircraft available in England. If there were 300 ME-262s available to the Germans in 1944 inside Germany they could have caused the allies exponentially higher losses to daytime allied bombing raids inside Germany. How high a losses could the allies have sustained before being forced to suspend daytime bombings? Several hundred fighters & bombers a week? 500? Certainly not 1,000.

Ibanez wrote:

houndawg wrote:
It was 100mph faster than a 51.

Hitler fvcked up and wanted it to be a fighter/bomber. As a pure fighter it had 100+ kills against bomber formations and didn't see its first combat until the second half of 1944.

Probably the biggest problem the Nazis had was that they didn't make a few great weapons for mass production. They were always trying to make bigger and better guns, tanks, planes, artillery....this was such a drag on resources and production. Make something that works, like the Mustang and make millions of them. Hitlers quest for the über weapon was just one of the many reasons they were screwed.

If you want a good read, read up on the Soviet war industry during this time. Their tank factories were incredible.

Yep. The Russians were fitting tanks with crews at the factory and having them drive to the front to fight when they were under siege. Now that's just in time logistics!