Thank you coal!

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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:43 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:23 pm
How can something that provides 23% of the grid power going offline NOT be “significant”?
"Least significant."

The entire system failed spectacularly, including fossil fuels and nuclear. Again this is not a indictment of one energy source over another, but it's an indictment of the people who poorly planned the infrastructure.

However, I think this episode is making a better case for solar energy at the individual level. You still have to be smart about energy-use during an emergency (ex. setting a thermostat to 50 instead of 70), but I'm sure a bunch of people would love to have solar battery-banks right now. And of course during regular times, solar partially or fully produces a home's energy. It almost makes too much sense in a flat, sun-rich state like TX.
Yep. Like any green energy, it’s mostly there in abundance when you don’t need it.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by ∞∞∞ »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:11 pm How well do solar panels work with a few inches of snow on them?
They don't, but that's not the point.

In a flat state like TX, panels supplement or fully provide energy for a home. They reduce loads on shared infrastructure, cut down on environmental impacts, and may even return energy back to the grid.

When sunlight is significantly reduced, you get what you can and the rest is provided by utility providers.

And when emergency events occur, the battery banks buy enough time so that people and pipes don't freeze while things get fixed.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:24 pm
SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:11 pm How well do solar panels work with a few inches of snow on them?
They don't, but that's not the point.

In a flat state like TX, panels supplement or fully provide energy for a home. They reduce loads on shared infrastructure, cut down on environmental impacts, and may even return energy back to the grid.

When sunlight is significantly reduced, you get what you can and the rest is provided by utility providers.

And when emergency events occur, the battery banks buy enough time so that people and pipes don't freeze while things get fixed.
Um, how do those battery banks recharge if the panels are covered in snow/ice when the utility provider is also down? Those batteries won't keep a house warm with the temps TX is seeing, they'll be dead in no time. Now I agree the concept is worth looking into and will keep some of your critical appliances running (refer/freezer for food) for a few days with utility power down.

Also no, there are environmental impacts from the development/manufacturing of the solar panels/battery banks. How long does it take for that impact to be made up for via traditional utility power?

Look dude, I agree with the concept of green energy. I'm interested in a solar panel and battery bank for my house but the payoff just isn't there yet. (I'm under $100/month for elec & gas for about 8 months of the year). However, those battery banks and solar panels do nothing if you lose power for multiple days in these mega storms as you'll burn through batteries in no time if you need it to heat your home.

The other operational and logistical issue with this green energy approach is that you still have to have traditional power plants ready to go and in reserve for something like this. Those plants, even when not in use, still have maintenance needs and costs associated to that.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Solar battery banks from good contractors are typically sized for 2-3 days of back-up energy at minimal load output. Of course the user needs to understand they can't be using the energy like it's a normal day.

But in an emergency, the point isn't to heat your home to a comfortable level. Hell, it may not be able to heat the home at all. However the energy could be the difference between freezing or being able to use a portable electric heater for a few days or hours at a time.

I agree that the green approach will require logistical issues for the next few decades, but at some point the goal is to be 100% green so we don't have to rely on fossil-fuel plants. Until that time, yes they'll have maintenance costs associated with them.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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I'm not sure trying to not freeze to death in your home equates to keeping your home at a comfortable temp. So again, these battery banks won't help much in this case.

I'm not seeing how we get around not needing fossil fuel energy plants. Assuming you mean no nuclear, I'm not sure how solar and wind will provide 100% of our needs. Dare I say that it's physically impossible?
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Re: Thank you coal!

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SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:30 pm I'm not sure trying to not freeze to death in your home equates to keeping your home at a comfortable temp. So again, these battery banks won't help much in this case.

I'm not seeing how we get around not needing fossil fuel energy plants. Assuming you mean no nuclear, I'm not sure how solar and wind will provide 100% of our needs. Dare I say that it's physically impossible?
It's not physically impossible, just a matter of material science and technology catching up with efficiency requirements. At the local level, the equipment we're using is also becoming more energy efficient: appliances, vehicles, lighting, air conditioning, etc.

It's a pretty exponential growth in efficiency as well; I think we'll see the ability to go 100% in my lifetime (I'd guess around 2050).

There's also more renewable energy technologies emerging, such as vibration, bio, and wave.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:35 pm
SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:30 pm I'm not sure trying to not freeze to death in your home equates to keeping your home at a comfortable temp. So again, these battery banks won't help much in this case.

I'm not seeing how we get around not needing fossil fuel energy plants. Assuming you mean no nuclear, I'm not sure how solar and wind will provide 100% of our needs. Dare I say that it's physically impossible?
It's not physically impossible, just a matter of material science and technology catching up with efficiency requirements. At the local level, the equipment we're using is also becoming more energy efficient: appliances, vehicles, lighting, air conditioning, etc.

It's a pretty exponential growth in efficiency as well; I think we'll see the ability to go 100% in my lifetime (I'd guess around 2050).

There's also more renewable energy technologies emerging, such as vibration, bio, and wave.
I hope we get there, but I don't see fossil fuels ever going away. All it takes is one mega storm like this to show why coal plants are still needed.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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There's theoretical concepts to harvest energy from storms to power us through storms, so who knows. Battery banks will also become super efficient at some point, so it could simply be a matter of saving energy during the good times and switching to battery power during the bad ones.

But yes, I hope we get there too. And there's little reason to think we can't based on humanity's history.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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SDHornet wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:20 pm
Fake News

It's from Sweden in 2015.

It's hot water being sprayed.

It was a test.

https://www.nyteknik.se/energi/helikopt ... en-6395827
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Re: Thank you coal!

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^No surprise.

As explained multiple times in this thread, blaming wind energy in this crisis is such a red herring. The entire system failed, and last I read wind capacity was down 25%, coal and nuclear at 30%, and natural gas at 40%.

You simply have to winterize equipment before cold-weather events if you didn't pay to winterize them upfront.

Hell, the US has wind turbines in the Antarctic running for 10+ years now: https://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/mmg_disp.j ... 8353&from=
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:05 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:32 pm Before global warming was imagined, we would go a week with -20 for the high, and no talk of power outages. Something change over the years.
Aging infrastructure and decades-long tax cuts. Some states and localities decided to increasingly privatize utilities to offset the lack of incoming money, but the utilities business is a low-margin industry which makes cost-cutting a real issue.

The Feds also continue to bail out private companies because energy delivery is a matter of national security.

I can understand disagreements about what services government should and shouldn't provide, but I feel like utilities should be an open-and-shut case of a public service paid for through taxes.
I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:28 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Aging infrastructure and decades-long tax cuts. Some states and localities decided to increasingly privatize utilities to offset the lack of incoming money, but the utilities business is a low-margin industry which makes cost-cutting a real issue.

The Feds also continue to bail out private companies because energy delivery is a matter of national security.

I can understand disagreements about what services government should and shouldn't provide, but I feel like utilities should be an open-and-shut case of a public service paid for through taxes.
I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:28 am

I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
Please explain why we need to increase taxes to fix this problem?

Power plants of all types have been built by private firms, not the government...some, subsidized by governments (especially solar and wind)...
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:28 am

I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
This isn't an extreme weather event, it was an event that can be expected basing it on historical weather. The record low for Texas is -23, in 1932. Higher taxes isn't the answer to everything. The more money the government gets, the more it waste, aka Russian investigation and Trump impeachments, Bengasi, etc. Government might want to remember they are working for us.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Col Hogan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:41 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
Please explain why we need to increase taxes to fix this problem?

Power plants of all types have been built by private firms, not the government...some, subsidized by governments (especially solar and wind)...
You could also cut spending but similar to utilities, people have an expectation for some level of government support.

As to your second point, let’s not pretend that fossil fuels haven’t received subsidies. That’s how it’s supposed to work in theory. Government providing infrastructure which private companies competently manage for a profit.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Oh yeah...and you Texans need to learn some self reliance apparently...


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Re: Thank you coal!

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:46 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
This isn't an extreme weather event, it was an event that can be expected basing it on historical weather. The record low for Texas is -23, in 1932. Higher taxes isn't the answer to everything. The more money the government gets, the more it waste, aka Russian investigation and Trump impeachments, Bengasi, etc. Government might want to remember they are working for us.
The higher taxes aren't forever.

We pay higher taxes now, modernize the infrastructure, and see long-term savings later.

I swear this country and its citizens have no concept of long-term returns; everything is about the immediate future. Hell even private corporations used to have 100-year plans and can barely look past two quarters now. God help us all.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:04 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:46 am

This isn't an extreme weather event, it was an event that can be expected basing it on historical weather. The record low for Texas is -23, in 1932. Higher taxes isn't the answer to everything. The more money the government gets, the more it waste, aka Russian investigation and Trump impeachments, Bengasi, etc. Government might want to remember they are working for us.
The higher taxes aren't forever.

We pay higher taxes now, modernize the infrastructure, and see long-term savings later.

I swear this country and its citizens have no concept of long-term returns; everything is about the immediate future. Hell even private corporations used to have 100-year plans and can barely look past two quarters now. God help us all.
Why raise taxes when a more efficient government would work.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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kalm wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:54 am
Col Hogan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:41 am

Please explain why we need to increase taxes to fix this problem?

Power plants of all types have been built by private firms, not the government...some, subsidized by governments (especially solar and wind)...
You could also cut spending but similar to utilities, people have an expectation for some level of government support.

As to your second point, let’s not pretend that fossil fuels haven’t received subsidies. That’s how it’s supposed to work in theory. Government providing infrastructure which private companies competently manage for a profit.
As to my second point, I didn’t’ the exculude fossil fuel plants from receiving subsidies, but wind and solar are the current major recipients of government largesse...

Regarding your point on people expecting some level of government support, that is a growing issue that I really don’t like...it’s an issue politicians of all stripes are taking advantage of...listen to Governor Abbott of Texas and his position on the current power issues in the state...like government is the cure to all issues...
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:46 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
This isn't an extreme weather event, it was an event that can be expected basing it on historical weather. The record low for Texas is -23, in 1932. Higher taxes isn't the answer to everything. The more money the government gets, the more it waste, aka Russian investigation and Trump impeachments, Bengasi, etc. Government might want to remember they are working for us.
Come on Gill...it is an extreme weather event in Texas...you had to go back 89 years to find the extreme...in fact, you have to go back 70 years to find similar weather like we have just gone through...
“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

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Re: Thank you coal!

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kalm wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:00 am Oh yeah...and you Texans need to learn some self reliance apparently...


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:lol: :lol: :lol:

While I agree with him to an extent that people sitting around waiting for the government to “save” them are dipshits, I’d love for him to explain what his version of “provide for the general welfare of...” means....what a retard.
Last edited by AZGrizFan on Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:28 am

I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
I doesn’t require an increase in taxes. It requires a rethinking of our priorities. Like not sending $1.4 billion to Saudi Arabia. Or $17 million to Afghanistan for gender studies when our own people are suffering. That kind of thing. The answer isn’t MORE money. It’s being smarter, which for politicians is like asking for a unicorn.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Col Hogan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:06 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:46 am

This isn't an extreme weather event, it was an event that can be expected basing it on historical weather. The record low for Texas is -23, in 1932. Higher taxes isn't the answer to everything. The more money the government gets, the more it waste, aka Russian investigation and Trump impeachments, Bengasi, etc. Government might want to remember they are working for us.
Come on Gill...it is an extreme weather event in Texas...you had to go back 89 years to find the extreme...in fact, you have to go back 70 years to find similar weather like we have just gone through...
We might have a difference of opinion on extreme.

Abilene -7 / 1985
Amarillo -14 / 1951
Austin -2 / 1949
Brownsville 15 / 1901
Corpus Christi 13 / 1989
Dallas - Ft. Worth -1 / 1989
Del Rio 10 / 1989
El Paso -8 / 1962
Galveston 14 / 1983
Houston 9 / 1989
Lubbock -17 / 1933
Midland / Odessa -11 / 1985
Port Arthur 12 / 1989
San Angelo -4 / 1989
San Antonio 0 / 1949
Victoria 9 / 1989
Waco -5 / 1949
Wichita Falls -12 / 1947
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:28 am

I worked for a power company for a few years. They had no problems with maintaining their nuclear or coal power plants. The NRC is on your ass about everything. A paper in the wrong folder was a huge fine. I work for the VP in charge of construction and procurement. The only issue I could see is the government trying to convert to green energy too soon. Taking money away from the best source of power at the time.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... _FINAL.pdf

Aging infrastructure and more extreme weather events due to climate change.

The US has a genuine infrastructure issue - energy and otherwise - that everyone is afraid of tackling. And they're afraid because it requires an increase in taxes, so we continue to kick the can down the road while maintenance requirements increase every year.

We have a lack of long-term vision in the US nowadays. Things don't last forever and Americans seem to be in denial that they'll need to pay for upgraded infrastructure. It's just going to get worse until politicians and citizens get real with the situation.

Denying the effects of climate change and not properly preparing for it is piling on at this point.
Again, it's not a tax issue. It's how that tax revenue is being spent. I have no problem with redirecting those tax revenue away from social issues and into infrastructure. In fact, the country would see a far greater benefit by doing so.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Interesting quick read:

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Notice how the nuclear and coal power — the baseload that can stay on and ramp up — has been flat. Notice also how wind and solar output crapped out forcing a ramp up in natural gas.

Texas and other states have no incentive to build baseload capacity because federal subsidies for renewables distort the market. Likewise, maintaining and weatherizing those baseload systems is economically disincentivized by those same federal subsidies. Additionally, most renewal energy systems have no obligations to contribute to maintenance of the existing power grid or ramp up capacity to that grid.
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