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Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:12 am
by kalm
Interesting when people like Lloyd Blankfein are recognizing the danger of capitalism eating itself. Economics 101, wages = demand.
(Except as…Cluck points out…in Haiti)
A few weeks ago I was visited in my office by the chairman of one of the country's biggest high-tech firms who wanted to talk about the causes and consequences of widening inequality and the shrinking middle class, and what to do about it.
I asked him why he was concerned. "Because the American middle class is the core of our customer base," he said. "If they can't afford our products in the years ahead, we're in deep trouble."
I'm hearing the same refrain from a growing number of business leaders.
They see an economic recovery that's bypassing most Americans. Median hourly and weekly pay dropped over the past year, adjusted for inflation.
Since the depths of the Great Recession in 2009, median real household income has fallen 4.4 percent, according to ananalysis by Sentier Research.
These business leaders know the U.S. economy can't get out of first gear as long as wages are declining. And their own businesses can't succeed over the long term without a buoyant and growing middle class….
Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman Sachs, warned recently on "CBS This Morning" that income inequality is "destablilizing" the nation and is "responsible for the divisions in the country." He went on to say that "too much of the GDP over the last generation has gone to too few of the people."...
Bill Gross, Chairman of Pimco, the largest bond-trading firm in the world, said this week that America needs policies that bring labor and capital back into balance, including a higher minimum wage and higher taxes on the rich...
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Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:28 am
by OL FU
To be honest, I support raising the capital gains tax. For many investing is their job, so if I could differentiate between those who work for a living and those who invest for a living I would. Perhaps there is some income cutoff. But honestly, I am sick and tired of people that think the way to raise the middle class is by taking money from the rich and an increasing the minimum wage. When absolutely neither of those things is going to impact the middle class one damn bit. This constant spewing at the mouth is about as intelligent as hearing Dick Cheney say for the 1 millionth time, we did the right thing in Iraq
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:36 am
by GannonFan
No one's arguing that there needs to be more equitable share of wealth (or even better, there just needs to be a lot more wealth in general). The question is how does it come about. Raising the minimum wage and increasing the taxes on the rich have never been shown to be good ways of accomplishing that. Income inequality has only been shown to be improved when the economy goes into recession - when the economy grows at a healthy clip (i.e. not like it's done since the '08 recession) then everyone benefits (and yes, the rich will always benefit more from a growing economy than the not so rich, but no one seems to mind as long as they are doing well themselves). Trying to tweak taxation policies and manipulating minimum wage rules have never been an effective tool for long term economic growth - you can't fake innovation and productivity, which are actual keys to sustained growth, by causing a blip on the radar like raising minimum wage is.
People tend to start talking about income inequality and the woes of it when they don't have a genuine idea of how to improve the economy as a whole. It's like trying to perform surgery using only a box of Elmo Band-Aids. It probably makes them feel good, but it doesn't really work.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:43 am
by OL FU
Shit from what I understand even the new hero of punitive taxation, Piketty, stated that his tax rates wouldn't raise the economics of the middle class, it would just make things more equal. Jesus
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:50 am
by CID1990
Yeah guys, but where's the fun in a fix if it doesn't involve shooting the Romanovs er I mean taxing the rich?
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:36 am
by travelinman67
GannonFan wrote:...a genuine idea of how to improve the economy as a whole. It's like trying to perform surgery using only a box of Elmo Band-Aids. It probably makes them feel good, but it doesn't really work.
No improvement will occur so long as American's and their government continue to live within the paradigm that "business (capitalism) is evil".
The system is broken.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:44 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote:GannonFan wrote:...a genuine idea of how to improve the economy as a whole. It's like trying to perform surgery using only a box of Elmo Band-Aids. It probably makes them feel good, but it doesn't really work.
No improvement will occur so long as American's and their government continue to live within the paradigm that "business (capitalism) is evil".
The system is broken.
None of these Silicon Valley entrepreneurs think that.
They just recognize that a thriving middle class buys more of their products.
What's broken is an electoral system based on money and entrenched power. The poor might vote for their own government dependence, but many of the "capitalists" vote with their dollars to secure their extraction rights and low taxes.
Never mind the national debt.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:18 am
by travelinman67
kalm wrote:travelinman67 wrote:
No improvement will occur so long as American's and their government continue to live within the paradigm that "business (capitalism) is evil".
The system is broken.
None of these Silicon Valley entrepreneurs think that.
They just recognize that a thriving middle class buys more of their products.
What's broken is an electoral system based on money and entrenched power. The poor might vote for their own government dependence, but many of the "capitalists" vote with their dollars to secure their extraction rights and low taxes.
Never mind the national debt.
Dude, every day you're sounding more like Jellydonut.
Just post a graph that shows it was Bush's fault and stick a fork in it.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:54 am
by CitadelGrad
OL FU wrote:To be honest, I support raising the capital gains tax. For many investing is their job, so if I could differentiate between those who work for a living and those who invest for a living I would. Perhaps there is some income cutoff. But honestly, I am sick and tired of people that think the way to raise the middle class is by taking money from the rich and an increasing the minimum wage. When absolutely neither of those things is going to impact the middle class one damn bit. This constant spewing at the mouth is about as intelligent as hearing Dick Cheney say for the 1 millionth time, we did the right thing in Iraq
I'm wondering how you are opposed to taking money from the rich to raise up the middle class but in favor of a higher capital gains rate. Who do you think make the greatest capital gains? The middle class is riding the QE wave of equity price inflation, but they'll get crushed just like they always do because they equate bubbles with economic growth.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:52 am
by houndawg
Higher capital gains tax, lower income tax.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:41 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote:kalm wrote:
None of these Silicon Valley entrepreneurs think that.
They just recognize that a thriving middle class buys more of their products.
What's broken is an electoral system based on money and entrenched power. The poor might vote for their own government dependence, but many of the "capitalists" vote with their dollars to secure their extraction rights and low taxes.
Never mind the national debt.
Dude, every day you're sounding more like Jellydonut.
Just post a graph that shows it was Bush's fault and stick a fork in it.
Ooooohhhh. Comparing me to an open minded kid with a shit ton more political sense than you????
Ouch!!!!!
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:31 pm
by Chizzang
travelinman67 wrote:kalm wrote:
None of these Silicon Valley entrepreneurs think that.
They just recognize that a thriving middle class buys more of their products.
What's broken is an electoral system based on money and entrenched power. The poor might vote for their own government dependence, but many of the "capitalists" vote with their dollars to secure their extraction rights and low taxes.
Never mind the national debt.
Dude, every day you're sounding more like Jellydonut.
Just post a graph that shows it was Bush's fault and stick a fork in it.
T-Man what is that ^ response..?
Kalm has a valid point - the empowered wealthy work very hard to keep "Their guys" in office
and work very hard to keep the playing field slanted in their favor
Nobody should even spend one minute debating that - because why wouldn't those in charge want to stay in charge and those with influence want to retain and expand their influence..?
Its no fault of theirs - its human nature - and is the very essence of Capitalism
A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
You're almost a lost cause - replies like that work against you...
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:04 pm
by kalm
Chizzang wrote:travelinman67 wrote:
Dude, every day you're sounding more like Jellydonut.
Just post a graph that shows it was Bush's fault and stick a fork in it.
T-Man what is that ^ response..?
Kalm has a valid point - the empowered wealthy work very hard to keep "Their guys" in office
and work very hard to keep the playing field slanted in their favor
Nobody should even spend one minute debating that - because why wouldn't those in charge want to stay in charge and those with influence want to retain and expand their influence..?
Its no fault of theirs - its human nature - and is the very essence of Capitalism
A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
You're almost a lost cause - replies like that work against you...
The very thought of progressive minded capitalists is terrifying!
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:21 pm
by Baldy
kalm wrote:
The very thought of progressive minded capitalists is terrifying!
Ummmm yeah, its called Fascism, and yes it is terrifying. History has proven that.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:49 pm
by CID1990
Chizzang wrote:A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
stability
ive seen a lot of the world where the hoi polloi dont run the show
im comfortable with some people having economic advantages over me given most of the alternatives - and i do believe millions of people streaming across our southern border and other millions scratching and biting for a US visa would agree with me
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:09 pm
by Chizzang
CID1990 wrote:Chizzang wrote:A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
stability
ive seen a lot of the world where the hoi polloi dont run the show
im comfortable with some people having economic advantages over me given most of the alternatives - and i do believe millions of people streaming across our southern border and other millions scratching and biting for a US visa would agree with me
Agreed,
The trick is to not get your head chopped off
Which is why we've got Wall Street and The FED - they function in such a manner as to be invisible to the masses for the most part
Were there deception and thievery common knowledge and handled like French Aristocracy the song and dance would have a different beat to it
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:32 pm
by travelinman67
Chizzang wrote:travelinman67 wrote:
Dude, every day you're sounding more like Jellydonut.
Wii
Just post a graph that shows it was Bush's fault and stick a fork in it.
T-Man what is that ^ response..?
Kalm has a valid point - the empowered wealthy work very hard to keep "Their guys" in office
and work very hard to keep the playing field slanted in their favor
Nobody should even spend one minute debating that - because why wouldn't those in charge want to stay in charge and those with influence want to retain and expand their influence..?
Its no fault of theirs - its human nature - and is the very essence of Capitalism
A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
You're almost a lost cause - replies like that work against you...
Hippie, look around you and tell me how well the "business as enemy" policies have worked?
In the hundreds of strategy meetings I attended as cost accountant, NEVER ONCE was there a discussion about wealth separation. Virtually every meeting targeted growth and labor expansion.
This IS the reason I passionately argue PRO-BUSINESS. Business growth equates middle-class prosperity.
Yet, repeatedly, incessantly, know-nothing, dogma-spewing progressives argue against business (read capitalism), pontificating about a mythical greedy capitalist "stealing"
wealth from the working class: Their "remedy"; destroy corporate America and American business through taxation and regulations.
Ultimately, businesses collapse and jobs leave.
Yet, despite the blaring evidence which proves the impropriety of progressive economic theory, numbskulls like yourself, klam, jellydonut, densedawg, continually waste time with futile debate trying to spin your loses.
Please, stop wasting everyone's time.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:27 pm
by CID1990
Chizzang wrote:CID1990 wrote:
stability
ive seen a lot of the world where the hoi polloi dont run the show
im comfortable with some people having economic advantages over me given most of the alternatives - and i do believe millions of people streaming across our southern border and other millions scratching and biting for a US visa would agree with me
Agreed,
The trick is to not get your head chopped off
Which is why we've got Wall Street and The FED - they function in such a manner as to be invisible to the masses for the most part
Were there deception and thievery common knowledge and handled like French Aristocracy the song and dance would have a different beat to it
there's a big difference though-
americans are not starving for want of bread- the worst off among us look like kings to your average Bangladeshi, Vietnamese or Honduran
when the poorest americans still have cellphones and honey boo boo there wont be any head chopping because americans still have WAY too much to lose
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:27 am
by OL FU
CitadelGrad wrote:OL FU wrote:To be honest, I support raising the capital gains tax. For many investing is their job, so if I could differentiate between those who work for a living and those who invest for a living I would. Perhaps there is some income cutoff. But honestly, I am sick and tired of people that think the way to raise the middle class is by taking money from the rich and an increasing the minimum wage. When absolutely neither of those things is going to impact the middle class one damn bit. This constant spewing at the mouth is about as intelligent as hearing Dick Cheney say for the 1 millionth time, we did the right thing in Iraq
I'm wondering how you are opposed to taking money from the rich to raise up the middle class but in favor of a higher capital gains rate. Who do you think make the greatest capital gains? The middle class is riding the QE wave of equity price inflation, but they'll get crushed just like they always do because they equate bubbles with economic growth.
I look at it as two different issues. I don't think that taxing the rich helps the middle class which is the argument that many have made to cure income inequality including the person in the article. In my opinion that is just a bogus argument. But I do look for some fairness in the tax laws. So someone making $20M in capital gains and paying 15% to 20% in taxes compared to someone that makes $60,000 in wages and paying a marginal tax rate of 25% (32% if you add in payroll taxes) seems more than a little unfair. And yes I do understand risk capital and investing money already taxed once. My preference would be to get the government to a manageable size and lower the taxes on income which would make the unfairness mentioned above less of an issue. But it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:52 am
by houndawg
CID1990 wrote:Chizzang wrote:A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
stability
ive seen a lot of the world where the hoi polloi dont run the show
im comfortable with some people having economic advantages over me given most of the alternatives - and i do believe millions of people streaming across our southern border and other millions scratching and biting for a US visa would agree with me
Most everybody is when it isn't taken ad absurdum. If money really meant
that much to me I'd have a lot more of it. I think the upper crust are starting to figure out that they'll be a lot better off if more of us have skin in the game.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:56 am
by houndawg
travelinman67 wrote:Chizzang wrote:
T-Man what is that ^ response..?
Kalm has a valid point - the empowered wealthy work very hard to keep "Their guys" in office
and work very hard to keep the playing field slanted in their favor
Nobody should even spend one minute debating that - because why wouldn't those in charge want to stay in charge and those with influence want to retain and expand their influence..?
Its no fault of theirs - its human nature - and is the very essence of Capitalism
A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
You're almost a lost cause - replies like that work against you...
Hippie, look around you and tell me how well the "business as enemy" policies have worked?
In the hundreds of strategy meetings I attended as cost accountant, NEVER ONCE was there a discussion about wealth separation. Virtually every meeting targeted growth and labor expansion.
This IS the reason I passionately argue PRO-BUSINESS.
Business growth equates middle-class prosperity.
Yet, repeatedly, incessantly, know-nothing, dogma-spewing progressives argue against business (read capitalism), pontificating about a mythical greedy capitalist "stealing"
wealth from the working class: Their "remedy"; destroy corporate America and American business through taxation and regulations.
Ultimately, businesses collapse and jobs leave.
Yet, despite the blaring evidence which proves the impropriety of progressive economic theory, numbskulls like yourself, klam, jellydonut, densedawg, continually waste time with futile debate trying to spin your loses.
Please, stop wasting everyone's time.
Thats why the middle class is so much better off now than 50 years ago.
Bean counters.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:21 am
by travelinman67
houndawg wrote:travelinman67 wrote:
Hippie, look around you and tell me how well the "business as enemy" policies have worked?
In the hundreds of strategy meetings I attended as cost accountant, NEVER ONCE was there a discussion about wealth separation. Virtually every meeting targeted growth and labor expansion.
This IS the reason I passionately argue PRO-BUSINESS.
Business growth equates middle-class prosperity.
Yet, repeatedly, incessantly, know-nothing, dogma-spewing progressives argue against business (read capitalism), pontificating about a mythical greedy capitalist "stealing"
wealth from the working class: Their "remedy"; destroy corporate America and American business through taxation and regulations.
Ultimately, businesses collapse and jobs leave.
Yet, despite the blaring evidence which proves the impropriety of progressive economic theory, numbskulls like yourself, klam, jellydonut, densedawg, continually waste time with futile debate trying to spin your loses.
Please, stop wasting everyone's time.
Thats why the middle class is so much better off now than 50 years ago.
American business has continually declined since 1973. Thanks for supporting my post.
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:38 pm
by Chizzang
travelinman67 wrote:Chizzang wrote:
T-Man what is that ^ response..?
Kalm has a valid point - the empowered wealthy work very hard to keep "Their guys" in office
and work very hard to keep the playing field slanted in their favor
Nobody should even spend one minute debating that - because why wouldn't those in charge want to stay in charge and those with influence want to retain and expand their influence..?
Its no fault of theirs - its human nature - and is the very essence of Capitalism
A more interesting reply form you might have been about the ADVANTAGES this system provides
You're almost a lost cause - replies like that work against you...
Hippie, look around you and tell me how well the "business as enemy" policies have worked?
In the hundreds of strategy meetings I attended as cost accountant, NEVER ONCE was there a discussion about wealth separation. Virtually every meeting targeted growth and labor expansion.
This IS the reason I passionately argue PRO-BUSINESS. Business growth equates middle-class prosperity.
Yet, repeatedly, incessantly, know-nothing, dogma-spewing progressives argue against business (read capitalism), pontificating about a mythical greedy capitalist "stealing"
wealth from the working class: Their "remedy"; destroy corporate America and American business through taxation and regulations.
Ultimately, businesses collapse and jobs leave.
Yet, despite the blaring evidence which proves the impropriety of progressive economic theory, numbskulls like yourself, klam, jellydonut, densedawg, continually waste time with futile debate trying to spin your loses.
Please, stop wasting everyone's time.
Interesting...
I work for a guy - who owns a few brands - strong brands
He makes about 3 x what I make and he's THE OWNER of this group of companies
He could choose to pay himself 300X like so many in his position do
Why do you think he doesn't do that...?
Take your time
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:52 pm
by Grizalltheway
travelinman67 wrote:houndawg wrote:
Thats why the middle class is so much better off now than 50 years ago.
American business has continually declined since 1973. Thanks for supporting my post.
Are you not including corporations in that statement? You know, those things whose cash reserves are at an all time high and whose workers have never been more productive?
Re: Saving Capitalism
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:58 pm
by houndawg
