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If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




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VictorG wrote:If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




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Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

The lawyers are the ones who will get rich on this rule. Lots of different approaches that can be taken for lawsuits depending on what route the EPA goes.

Chizzang wrote:

VictorG wrote:If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06 ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

Actually the reason Obama and the EPA have it on the timeline that they do is sot that they can try and get it in place before the next president. Doesn't make it impossible to overturn but will make it harder.

Chizzang wrote:

VictorG wrote:If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




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Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

They are concerned about passing debt on to future generations though.

kalm wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

They are concerned about passing debt on to future generations though.

Depends on how the debt is generated... apparently some kinds of debt are awesome

Living in a place powered mostly by coal, it gives me warm and fuzzy feelings that my power bill will go up while 0bama does nothing to add nuclear power while his buddies frack the hell out the hell out of the ground and possibly contaminate water with REAL hazardous chemicals (ie not CO2).

Pwns wrote:Living in a place powered mostly by coal, it gives me warm and fuzzy feelings that my power bill will go up while 0bama does nothing to add nuclear power while his buddies frack the hell out the hell out of the ground and possibly contaminate water with REAL hazardous chemicals (ie not CO2).

I bet fracking will be a thing of the past within the next 15 years........

VictorG wrote:

Pwns wrote:Living in a place powered mostly by coal, it gives me warm and fuzzy feelings that my power bill will go up while 0bama does nothing to add nuclear power while his buddies frack the hell out the hell out of the ground and possibly contaminate water with REAL hazardous chemicals (ie not CO2).

I bet fracking will be a thing of the past within the next 15 years........

Wrong. There's enough natural gas in shale that will last for generations...

BDKJMU wrote:

VictorG wrote:

I bet fracking will be a thing of the past within the next 15 years........

Wrong. There's enough natural gas in shale that will last for generations...

I'm betting it will be illegal....

Chizzang wrote:

VictorG wrote:If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06 ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

Well, we're negotiating with terrorists now and spying on our own citizens, so the Dems have that going for them.

VictorG wrote:

BDKJMU wrote:
Wrong. There's enough natural gas in shale that will last for generations...

I'm betting it will be illegal....

Nope. That genie is out of the bottle. You environmental wackos can't stop it.

VictorG wrote:If we can leave nothing else for future generations, at least a cleaner environment is something!

No matter what the cost!!!!!




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06 ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, no matter what the cost, even if the country if they're dirt poor..

HI54UNI wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Yeah... and 15 minutes after a Republican President gets elected this will be overturned

Actually the reason Obama and the EPA have it on the timeline that they do is sot that they can try and get it in place before the next president. Doesn't make it impossible to overturn but will make it harder.

Wait, can't POTUS's just ignore/change/not enforce parts of laws they don't like?

BDKJMU wrote:

VictorG wrote:
I'm betting it will be illegal....

Nope. That genie is out of the bottle. You environmental wackos can't stop it.

I don't think there's any doubt that fracking is here to stay - there may be more restrictions in some places versus what there is today, but there's no way it's going to be curtailed. On the contrary, we're looking at a good 50 year boom in terms of natural gas production in this country. It is the perfect time to wean ourselves off of coal, because now we can (although we always could have before since nuclear has been around for decades, but the environmentalists made that such an impossible alternative that we had to burn as much coal as we have done over the past few decades - ironic, although I'm sure they don't realize that).

Of course, as we do these things, you have to wonder where the global thinking is. Sure, we can start reducing our dependency on coal, but since fracking came along we've been going in that direction anyway. But from a climate change standpoint, this is alomst like pissing into the ocean - whatever small measure we get in terms of reduced CO2, it's going to be swamped by increased CO2 emissions throughout the rest of the world. So it amounts to a perfect climate change combatting piece of legislation (er, rulemaking, since this is an EPA initiative) that has no chance to reverse or halt climate change.

GannonFan wrote:

BDKJMU wrote:
Nope. That genie is out of the bottle. You environmental wackos can't stop it.

I don't think there's any doubt that fracking is here to stay - there may be more restrictions in some places versus what there is today, but there's no way it's going to be curtailed. On the contrary, we're looking at a good 50 year boom in terms of natural gas production in this country. It is the perfect time to wean ourselves off of coal, because now we can (although we always could have before since nuclear has been around for decades, but the environmentalists made that such an impossible alternative that we had to burn as much coal as we have done over the past few decades - ironic, although I'm sure they don't realize that).

Of course, as we do these things, you have to wonder where the global thinking is. Sure, we can start reducing our dependency on coal, but since fracking came along we've been going in that direction anyway. But from a climate change standpoint, this is alomst like pissing into the ocean - whatever small measure we get in terms of reduced CO2, it's going to be swamped by increased CO2 emissions throughout the rest of the world. So it amounts to a perfect climate change combatting piece of legislation (er, rulemaking, since this is an EPA initiative) that has no chance to reverse or halt climate change.

Great analysis. We emit the least amount of CO2 per ton of fossil fuels burned than any place on earth now. Whatever reductions we can further manage are minuscule compared to increases elsewhere. Nuclear is not an option because of environmentalists. The glut of natural gas production from fracking is driving down prices and facilitating the switch from coal to nat gas, which naturally reduces CO2 emissions as it burns cleaner and more efficiently, while reducing costs to consumers.

By encouraging and permitting sites for the export of nat gas the EPA can better reduce carbon emissions world wide effectively, increase wealth and jobs domestically, reduce Russia's political sway over Europe and its aggressiveness in places like the Ukraine and increase world wide prosperity by increasing disposable income as worldwide nat gas prices reduce as ours have.

The main "chemicals" used in fracking are sand and water, not exactly pollutants.

A few problems with natural gas for electric generation -

-Pipeline capacity doesn't currently exist to meet the demand so a lot of money is going to have to be spent on pipelines.
-Increased demand for electric generation drives up the price of natural gas. Exports to Europe will too. This drives up the cost of generating electricity which makes coal more competitive. Fuel switching from coal to gas is generally only happening when comparing to the price of eastern coal. Depending on the heat rate of a generation facility Powder River/western coal is still cheaper than natural gas. Higher costs also negatively impact home heating and industrial uses of natural gas so the customers will get hit with higher electric and gas bills.
-The EPA has two carbon rules out now. One for new plants that was released several months ago and the one for existing plants that was released today. The rule for new plants eliminates coal. You can't make it work. Natural gas works under the new rule but there is some concern over building new gas plants and the long term impact. As the plants age their efficiency goes down which means they may emit more carbon than the limits under the new rule. Do you make a large investment in a gas fired plant when you can't guarantee that it will meet the rules in 10 years?
-Natural gas generation plants don't have fuel storage on site. Pipeline disruptions can take units offline whereas coal plants have a 30-60-90 day supply on hand.