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Beef, Butter and Cheese are good for you...and bad science has been trying to scare you away from it...

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 81486.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Now, rising prices...that's something entirely different...I hear a sirloin calling my name...

The day I ever let science or anyone else tell me what to eat is the day I eat a gun.

I don't care if 60% of steak gave me herpes I would still eat it 5 times a week.

There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I tried Googleing around on this and found that this is not the first study like this. Like in trying to find the study the author referenced I found one published in 2010 (abstract at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early ... 5.abstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I came across one page where a guy claimed that "The only 2 double-blind, randomized trials in history failed to show that a low-saturated fat diet decreases heart disease" (http://www.awlr.org/saturated-fat-and-h ... ials.htmlz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Frankly I'm surprised that people were able to perform controlled experiments on that question because to me you're talking about a very long experiment. But anyway as far as I can tell it looks like there's not a lot of evidence for an association between saturated fats consumption and heart disease.

The only quibble I have is with making the statement ""Saturated fat does not cause heart disease." You know the drill. You can't state "no effect." You have to say something like "There is not sufficient evidence to conclude that saturated fat causes heart disease."

What's interesting though is that I think there HAVE been controlled experiments showing that reducing saturated fat intake lowers cholesterol. That would be an easy experiment to do and the same guy who said the thing about the two double blind randomized trials to test saturated fat/heart disease said "Dietary saturated fats increase blood cholesterol levels in feeding studies" and "Replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats decrease cholesterol levels."

Kind of interesting in that it looks like there's sufficient evidence to say reducing saturated fats in the diet reduces cholesterol levels but not sufficient evidence to say reducing saturated fats in the diet reduces risk of heart disease. Kind of raises other questions.

I'm like the other guy though. I'd eat red meat regardless.

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

Observational study. Can't be used to infer cause and effect. The one mentioned in the linked article at the top of this thread probably is too. I'm guessing it was a meta analysis of previous observational studies kind of like the one I linked from 2010. But since it's result was "not sufficient evidence to say there's an association" it doesn't matter.

Of course the study referenced in the article linked at the start of the thread just deals with association with heart disease. The study described in the article you linked deals with death from any cause.

One of the first things you should want to check is how big of a role causes of death that can't possibly be related to diet contributed to that. Like what if there were a lot more deaths from motor vehicle accidents among those who ate red meat?

When you start talking about death from all causes you get into the realm of possibilities of people who tend to eat more red meat also happening to have different behaviors in numerous areas and you can't assume you can mathematically "control" for all of that. It could be, for instance, that people who tend to eat more red meat also tend to take more risks in their day to day lives.

I'm sure the researchers involved discussed that sort of thing in their paper but you can't assume you can account for every possibility. That's why you can't really infer cause and effect with an observational study like that. If you don't randomly assign subjects to treatment and control groups and they "self select" the level of "treatment" you have to stick with saying "there is an association" instead of saying the treatment causes the effect.

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I'll wager you have celiac disease, peanut allergies, avoid Pacific fish due to Fukushima irradiation, boycott Russian vodka, refuse to shop at Walmart, buy organic produce only from local growers at a farmers market, drink soy milk, either meditate or have plans to begin soon, and have examined your genitalia with a handheld mirror wondering how you'd look with a vagina.

Say it ain't so.

travelinman67 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I'll wager you have celiac disease, peanut allergies, avoid Pacific fish due to Fukushima irradiation, boycott Russian vodka, refuse to shop at Walmart, buy organic produce only from local growers at a farmers market, drink soy milk, either meditate or have plans to begin soon, and have examined your genitalia with a handheld mirror wondering how you'd look with a vagina.

Say it ain't so.

You are wrong. He does not have peanut allergies.

travelinman67 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I'll wager you have celiac disease, peanut allergies, avoid Pacific fish due to Fukushima irradiation, boycott Russian vodka, refuse to shop at Walmart, buy organic produce only from local growers at a farmers market, drink soy milk, either meditate or have plans to begin soon, and have examined your genitalia with a handheld mirror wondering how you'd look with a vagina.

Say it ain't so.

travelinman67 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I'll wager you have celiac disease, peanut allergies, avoid Pacific fish due to Fukushima irradiation, boycott Russian vodka, refuse to shop at Walmart, buy organic produce only from local growers at a farmers market, drink soy milk, either meditate or have plans to begin soon, and have examined your genitalia with a handheld mirror wondering how you'd look with a vagina.

Say it ain't so.

Oh look you at you. You're a big man. Someone has a difference of opinion and you act like a petulant, 3 year old. Big bad talker you are.

I have Crohns (genetic disease) but it isn't too bad. I buy locally b/c it's safer and your conks should support keeping more money in the local economy. Never enjoyed vodka. I don't refuse to shop at Wal-Mart, I just don't have the need. And if I'm a vagina, then the old adage, "You are what you eat" must be true.

As for anecdotal, there has been much research that shows people who have reduced to eliminated meat from their diets and had all sorts of ailments (obesity, RA, gout, diabetes, etc..) greatly reduced if not completely cured. Meat consumption has greatly increased. What used to be once or twice a week for most people is now 3 times a day.

Spoiler: show

I don't buy into the, "better health through science," bullshit. I eat healthier so that I don't have to be on several different medications.

What works for me, might not work for you. I'm not attempting to convince you, i'm just playing devils advocate.


Just like gay marriage, people get up in arms when you don't follow their idea of a perfect diet. And it's usually Republicans.

Notice how he dodged the mirror allegation?

TMan nailed this one

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Notice how he dodged the mirror allegation?

TMan nailed this one

That's all you read? My god you're a moron.

Ibanez wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Notice how he dodged the mirror allegation?

TMan nailed this one

That's all you read? My god you're a moron.

You do this a lot, every time somebody disagrees with you they are a moron......now quit being a pussy.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:

Ibanez wrote: That's all you read? My god you're a moron.

You do this a lot, every time somebody disagrees with you they are a moron......now quit being a pussy.

No. Unlike you, i'm tolerant and listen to other peoples opinions and thoughts. I'm a reasonable, open-minded person.

There aren't many of us in the South, but we do exist.

Ibanez wrote: Oh look you at you. You're a big man. Someone has a difference of opinion and you act like a petulant, 3 year old. Big bad talker you are.

Burn these into your eprom, I...

1. Everything put forth by govt and media is driven by a social engineering agenda. Those agendas are universally designed to shift power or generate profit at your expense.

2. Vegan/vegetarianism does not make you healthier. The.human body NEEDS animal protein to function properly. There is a reason why there are no lifelong vegan/vegetarians...those.who try have shortener life span. I've said this many time, set a beautiful porterhouse in front of a pregnant vegan, then stand back...wanna see animal?

3. Life is to be enjoyed...above all else. Virtue, nobility, development, while essential to life are subservient to our hedonistic needs. Despite a "popular" notion that you will enjoy your life more by eating steamed kale and raw nuts rather than a ribeye, if you can't see the fallacy of that propoganda, you WILL endure a life of pathetic shortcomings and passionless fears.

travelinman67 wrote:

Ibanez wrote: Oh look you at you. You're a big man. Someone has a difference of opinion and you act like a petulant, 3 year old. Big bad talker you are.

Burn these into your eprom, I...

1. Everything put forth by govt and media is driven by a social engineering agenda. Those agendas are universally designed to shift power or generate profit at your expense.

2. Vegan/vegetarianism does not make you healthier. The.human body NEEDS animal protein to function properly. There is a reason why there are no lifelong vegan/vegetarians...those.who try have shortener life span. I've said this many time, set a beautiful porterhouse in front of a pregnant vegan, then stand back...wanna see animal?

3. Life is to be enjoyed...above all else. Virtue, nobility, development, while essential to life are subservient to our hedonistic needs. Despite a "popular" notion that you will enjoy your life more by eating steamed kale and raw nuts rather than a ribeye, if you can't see the fallacy of that propoganda, you WILL endure a life of pathetic shortcomings and passionless fears.

1. Common sense tells me that ingesting additional pesticides, hormones and antibiotics is not a good things.

2. We don't need animal protein as much as you think. Sure, mussels were critical for our brain development, but the way Americans eat meat (3 times a day, every day) is a modern notion. Furthermore, Americans eat way more meat than most other countries. The real issue is the increased amount of meat consumption. Thinking back to my childhood in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have meat at every meal. I know many farmers (like those in relation to my family's farm) that would eat meat occasionally but not for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner.

Spoiler: show

Btw, my wife so far is a life long vegetarian and she's quite healthy. Her grandmother 83 yrs old and has been a vegetarian since the 1940s. Those two examples alone prove your are wrong. Your contention that a pregnant vegan would eat a steak isn't based in fact. Gross, inaccurate generalizations don't make you right.

3. Life is to be enjoyed, and if you are suffering from gout, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, RA, etc.. all other things attributed to an overindulgence of meat, are you really enjoying life? I eat poultry and fish, have improved health and enjoy being able to take long hikes, be outside and not uncomfortable like all the fat bodies around me. It's all a difference of opinion.

You speak of propaganda, while it seems to me that you are adhering to some yourself. But, i'm playing devils advocate. My lifestyle is quite healthy, except for the occasional fast food. The vegetarians and vegans I know live healthy, fulfilling lives. They get more protein in a meal than you probably get in one rib eye. Protein is great, but it isn't everything.


Since we're using software terminology, I assume my post will be a destructive build.

Ibanez wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote: You do this a lot, every time somebody disagrees with you they are a moron......now quit being a pussy.

No. Unlike you, i'm tolerant and listen to other peoples opinions and thoughts. I'm a reasonable, open-minded person.

There aren't many of us in the South, but we do exist.

I am the most tolerant person you would ever meet and if I didn't like hearing other people opinions and thoughts.....why the fu* k would I post here? That's the best thing about boards like this is seeing just how fu*king wrong you dolts back east are about everything.

It's awesome for that.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:
No. Unlike you, i'm tolerant and listen to other peoples opinions and thoughts. I'm a reasonable, open-minded person.

There aren't many of us in the South, but we do exist.

I am the most tolerant person you would ever meet and if I didn't like hearing other people opinions and thoughts.....why the fu* k would I post here? That's the best thing about boards like this is seeing just how fu*king wrong you dolts back east are about everything.

It's awesome for that.

Nothing you post on here is tolerant. If it wasn't for the East Coast, you'd be pledging allegiance to the Union Jack. The East is where the power is. Political. Financial. We're runnin' this bitch.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:

Ibanez wrote:
No. Unlike you, i'm tolerant and listen to other peoples opinions and thoughts. I'm a reasonable, open-minded person.

There aren't many of us in the South, but we do exist.

I am the most tolerant person you would ever meet and if I didn't like hearing other people opinions and thoughts.....why the fu* k would I post here? That's the best thing about boards like this is seeing just how fu*king wrong you dolts back east are about everything.

It's awesome for that.

Only some of us "dolts back east" are wrong.

Ibanez wrote: 2. We don't need animal protein as much as you think. Sure, mussels were critical for our brain development, but the way Americans eat meat (3 times a day, every day) is a modern notion.

Brain Food...










Veggie-boy Darwinates.

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I still eat meat. I just limit it. Only once or twice a week.

Skjellyfetti wrote:

Ibanez wrote:There's plenty of research that proves the opposite. The red meat of today, with all it's added hormones and antibiotics is different and more dangerous than anything that's natural.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/13 ... t-20120313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just my opinion. Since I gave up red meat in 2011, my health has improved immensely.

I still eat meat. I just limit it. Only once or twice a week.

wet

Everything in moderation.

Eat meat WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE EATING MEAT...TRUST YOUR BODY'S CRAVINGS.

I keep beef, pork, chicken, turkey and fish in either my fridge or freezer...process my own meats (pastrami, corned beef, etc) and make my own sausage - italian, breakfast, chorizo, andouil - have raised.my own pork and beef in the past and just had a friend buy into another steer this fall.

Worried about your health? Stop eating processed foods and start cooking fresh!

And one final comment re: pregnant vegan/vegetarians...

...during my life I've known dozens if not hundreds of vegan/vegetarian women who've become pregnant.

EVERY ONE OF THEM, no exceptions, ate animal protein during their pregnancy: Sometimes just fish or poultry, but all reiterated a similar sentiment that they "...needed more protein in their diet."

Not just my opinion...to the mouths of babes, so to speak.

note to self: do not take diet advice from fat man on the internet

If it makes you feel better not to eat red meat I understand not eating red meat. Same with bread and such.

But the thing about life expectancy...I just don't know. I frankly think we have done too good a job of creating a situation where people are hanging on to life at the end taking 50 pills a day to hang on.

I think there really is a question as to whether you'd like to enjoy life without worrying about hanging on to the last fingernail against the inevitable or do that hanging on while worrying about every choice you make so you can have a few more years as an old fart taking those 50 pills per day, descending into dementia, and being miserable.

Well, I'm sure you disagree... but, diet (especially a diet full of red meat) has been pretty well linked to dementia.

I'm pretty sure that's the vegetarian diet you are thinking of because of the low Vitamin B12 content.