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NYT has varous reactions from our betters in Europe on the screwed up execution in Oklahoma:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/01/us/ou ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm somewhat ambiguous on the death penalty. I think there are situations that merit it, but there are some pretty bad people who do some pretty heinous things who do not get the death penalty, and I don't lose a lot of sleep over those cases.

This was from the article and I thought it was somewhat representative of the progressive European mindset (ignorant of reality): "Javier Garvich, making a comment on the Spanish website of El País, wrote that “if this happened in Cuba or North Korea, the United Nations would seek international sanctions.”"

Wut? Actually if it happened in Cuba or North Korea I believe it would be seen as an improvement.

I guess in this case, I can't get past what the guy did. Hard for me to feel sympathetic towards him. He shot his victim twice with a shotgun (after having raped her) and then had her buried while she was still alive.

Ironically enough, it was a decision by a European country that indirectly led to this, and other, botched executions.

One of the rare cases I side with Europe. I'm against the death penalty.

89Hen wrote:One of the rare cases I side with Europe. I'm against the death penalty.

Me too. If a guy did that to my daughter/wife, he would never see the inside of a prison. Or a courtroom, for that matter.

The only thing that gives me pause about the death penalty is letting our very imperfect justice system determining a life or death situation.

I have no problem with putting people like this guy down like rabid dogs. And if it doesn't work and causes some agony, too bad.

89Hen wrote:One of the rare cases I side with Europe. I'm against the death penalty.

Yup, me too. Just too many cases where a wrong person has been convicted of a crime, only to find out 20 years later they didn't do it. I'm sure we've killed some innocent people in the past 100 years from simply not getting it right.

I am a fan of cruel punishments, though (the Constitution only disallows cruel and unusual - if we use some of these more often they are no longer unusual and hence okay by my reading of the text!). Having a guy tied to leg irons and forced to break boulders with a pick axe for the next 80 years of his life, while being tucked away in a supermax prison without windows for the time he's not doing that, if plenty fine with me.

Pwns wrote:The only thing that gives me pause about the death penalty is letting our very imperfect justice system determining a life or death situation.

I have no problem with putting people like this guy down like rabid dogs. And if it doesn't work and causes some agony, too bad.

Yeah that about sums it up for me, also.

I would rather let a guy like this one off the hook than execute an innocent one.

GannonFan wrote:

89Hen wrote:One of the rare cases I side with Europe. I'm against the death penalty.

Yup, me too. Just too many cases where a wrong person has been convicted of a crime, only to find out 20 years later they didn't do it. I'm sure we've killed some innocent people in the past 100 years from simply not getting it right.

I am a fan of cruel punishments, though (the Constitution only disallows cruel and unusual - if we use some of these more often they are no longer unusual and hence okay by my reading of the text!). Having a guy tied to leg irons and forced to break boulders with a pick axe for the next 80 years of his life, while being tucked away in a supermax prison without windows for the time he's not doing that, if plenty fine with me.

The bloody eagle. That's the ticket.

AZGrizFan wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Yup, me too. Just too many cases where a wrong person has been convicted of a crime, only to find out 20 years later they didn't do it. I'm sure we've killed some innocent people in the past 100 years from simply not getting it right.

I am a fan of cruel punishments, though (the Constitution only disallows cruel and unusual - if we use some of these more often they are no longer unusual and hence okay by my reading of the text!). Having a guy tied to leg irons and forced to break boulders with a pick axe for the next 80 years of his life, while being tucked away in a supermax prison without windows for the time he's not doing that, if plenty fine with me.

The bloody eagle. That's the ticket.

Eh, like I said, I'd rather keep them alive and live an absolutely pointless and miserable and rotten existence for many, many decades. Give em crappy food as well. Cruel should be fine as long as we keep the frequency of it up to not be unusual.

CID1990 wrote:

Pwns wrote:The only thing that gives me pause about the death penalty is letting our very imperfect justice system determining a life or death situation.

I have no problem with putting people like this guy down like rabid dogs. And if it doesn't work and causes some agony, too bad.

Yeah that about sums it up for me, also.

I would rather let a guy like this one off the hook than execute an innocent one.

If you get a chance, read thru these articles on the Lori Roscetti case

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-dpros ... 03.special" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lori was a High School friend - we took all our classes together, were the top math and science students at our high school. She was raped and brutally murdered in 1986 while coming home from a late night medical school study session.

4 teenagers were convicted in her killing. The judge wanted to give them the death penalty, but couldn't because of their age.

15 years later, DNA evidence cleared the 4. The police were under great pressure to find the killers of a pretty blond medical student. They coercered a confession. The Crime Lab falsified evidence


A year later, the same DNA evidence linked two other men to the crime.




So not only did the Roscetti family have to suffer the loss of their youngest, they have to live with the fact that 4 teens spent 15 years locked up in adult prison for a crime they didn't commit.

GannonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
The bloody eagle. That's the ticket.

Eh, like I said, I'd rather keep them alive and live an absolutely pointless and miserable and rotten existence for many, many decades. Give em crappy food as well. Cruel should be fine as long as we keep the frequency of it up to not be unusual.

Make it more like Shawshank and less like a Holiday Inn, and i'll get on board.

dbackjon wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Yeah that about sums it up for me, also.

I would rather let a guy like this one off the hook than execute an innocent one.

If you get a chance, read thru these articles on the Lori Roscetti case

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-dpros ... 03.special" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lori was a High School friend - we took all our classes together, were the top math and science students at our high school. She was raped and brutally murdered in 1986 while coming home from a late night medical school study session.

4 teenagers were convicted in her killing. The judge wanted to give them the death penalty, but couldn't because of their age.

15 years later, DNA evidence cleared the 4. The police were under great pressure to find the killers of a pretty blond medical student. They coercered a confession. The Crime Lab falsified evidence


A year later, the same DNA evidence linked two other men to the crime.




So not only did the Roscetti family have to suffer the loss of their youngest, they have to live with the fact that 4 teens spent 15 years locked up in adult prison for a crime they didn't commit.

While I agree with the premise (i.e. way too many flaws in the system to really justify continuing the death penalty) the Roscetti family was in no way culpable or responsible for the miscarriage in justice that was inflicted on those 4 innocent teens. That's something that the cops and prosecutors should, but probably don't, feel guilty about.

GannonFan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

If you get a chance, read thru these articles on the Lori Roscetti case

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-dpros ... 03.special" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lori was a High School friend - we took all our classes together, were the top math and science students at our high school. She was raped and brutally murdered in 1986 while coming home from a late night medical school study session.

4 teenagers were convicted in her killing. The judge wanted to give them the death penalty, but couldn't because of their age.

15 years later, DNA evidence cleared the 4. The police were under great pressure to find the killers of a pretty blond medical student. They coercered a confession. The Crime Lab falsified evidence


A year later, the same DNA evidence linked two other men to the crime.




So not only did the Roscetti family have to suffer the loss of their youngest, they have to live with the fact that 4 teens spent 15 years locked up in adult prison for a crime they didn't commit.

While I agree with the premise (i.e. way too many flaws in the system to really justify continuing the death penalty) the Roscetti family was in no way culpable or responsible for the miscarriage in justice that was inflicted on those 4 innocent teens. That's something that the cops and prosecutors should, but probably don't, feel guilty about.

I should have been clearer - they were not responsible for the convictions of the 4, but they felt personally horrible that 4 teens had their lives ruined as well - additional victims of the crime.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we leave that stinking island 200+ years ago because we didn't give a shit what they thought?

GrizFanStuckInUtah wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we leave that stinking island 200+ years ago because we didn't give a shit what they thought?

Mine did almost 500 years ago.

Flaggy's did a couple decades ago.

I've been very clear that I'm in favor of the DP only in cases where they're caught literally red handed, or where the evidence is indisputable.

Firing squad would be more effective and more humane, especially if they went with head shots.

Why are we supposed to feel sorry for killers, child abusers, and rapists anyway?

93henfan wrote:Firing squad would be more effective and more humane, especially if they went with head shots.

Why are we supposed to feel sorry for killers, child abusers, and rapists anyway?

We don't have to. Different argument .

Yup, me too. Just too many cases where a wrong person has been convicted of a crime, only to find out 20 years later they didn't do it. I'm sure we've killed some innocent people in the past 100 years from simply not getting it right.

That's what gives me the most pause with the death penalty as well. In my opinion the advent of DNA ID technology has made it abundantly clear that our court system has an unacceptably high rate of false conviction. I say that because I look at convictions that have been unequivocally demonstrated to be false through DNA technology as the tip of the iceberg.

GannonFan wrote:That's something that the cops and prosecutors should, but probably don't, feel guilty about.

Thats quite an assumption, there

Sort of like me saying you're "probably" a criminal for thinking that way

the hundreds of cops I know would never have brought a bad case like this to begin with- there are hundreds of thousands of GOOD cases every year- but the VAST majority of cops are not going to railroad people they know to be innocent into prison

i cant speak for the prosecutors

CID1990 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:That's something that the cops and prosecutors should, but probably don't, feel guilty about.

Thats quite an assumption, there

Sort of like me saying you're "probably" a criminal for thinking that way

the hundreds of cops I know would never have brought a bad case like this to begin with- there are hundreds of thousands of GOOD cases every year- but the VAST majority of cops are not going to railroad people they know to be innocent into prison

i cant speak for the prosecutors

To me the key difference is that prosecutors are elected. They placate mobs.

AZGrizFan wrote:I've been very clear that I'm in favor of the DP only in cases where they're caught literally red handed, or where the evidence is indisputable.

I'm against the Death Penalty, but if we're going to have it the standard has to be higher than the standard to convict. Beyond a reasonable doubt is good enough to convict, beyond all doubt should be the standard for the Death Penalty.

I still say lock them in a cinder block cell for the rest of their lives. No outside contact, no TV, only books (with no pictures).

93henfan wrote:Firing squad would be more effective and more humane, especially if they went with head shots.

Why are we supposed to feel sorry for killers, child abusers, and rapists anyway?

BINGO!!!

Put their head in a brace so they can't move their head, use a gelatin block in an inverted pyramid trap to catch the debris, roll a jig-mounted . 50 bmg barrel/receiver up to their cranium, and using an electronic trigger...crack. Instantaneous.

Too violent?

We use the same method for routine military and law enforcement EVERY DAY.

travelinman67 wrote:

93henfan wrote:Firing squad would be more effective and more humane, especially if they went with head shots.

Why are we supposed to feel sorry for killers, child abusers, and rapists anyway?

BINGO!!!Put their head in a brace so they can't move their head, use a gelatin block in an inverted pyramid trap to catch the debris, roll a jig-mounted . 50 bmg barrel/receiver up to their cranium, and using an electronic trigger...crack. Instantaneous.

Too violent?



We use the same method for routine military and law enforcement EVERY DAY.

We should use them in place of crash test dummies.

BlueHen86 wrote:

travelinman67 wrote:
BINGO!!!Put their head in a brace so they can't move their head, use a gelatin block in an inverted pyramid trap to catch the debris, roll a jig-mounted . 50 bmg barrel/receiver up to their cranium, and using an electronic trigger...crack. Instantaneous.

Too violent?



We use the same method for routine military and law enforcement EVERY DAY.

We should use them in place of crash test dummies.

...or tastetesters for a vegan kitchen.