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Posted: **Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:54 pm**

Just something I noticed playing with the NAEP data. It looks like the actual benefit of sending your kids to private school is minimal. It seems clear that the impression based on standardized test scores that children receive a far better education in private schools is an artifact of the fact that private school student populations are disproportionately composed of students in "advantaged" groups. I have heard public school advocates make that claim and I think the data support it.

I picked one SES/Parental Education/Race group. I kind of had to because what happens is that there are apparently so few disadvantaged children going to private schools that the NAEP could not generate estimates for disadvantaged groups in private schools. The ONLY group for which I could consistently get results for both public and private schools is White children who are not eligible for the school lunch program (middle to upper class) such that at least one parent graduated college. I looked at the 9 8th grade NAEP subject matter tests for which I could get cross tabulated results. In all cases the private school students scored markedly better when all students were considered. In 8 of 9 cases the difference was 'statistically significant" (95 percent confidence level).

But when I compared apples to apples by looking only at White middle/upper class children of college graduates, the differences were minimized. In one subject area, mathematics, the public school children in that group scored a slightly higher sample average. There were only two cases in which the differences in average scores between private and public schools students in that group were "statistically significant." Below are the results. P values are shown and a p value of 0.05 or less means "statistically significant. I bolded those. When p is > 0.05, that's what you've heard referenced as a "statistical tie." There is not sufficient evidence to conclude that there is a difference between the two populations represented. "Selected Group" means White children who were not eligible for the school lunch program with at least one parent who graduated college. Another thing: I say "apples to apples" but it may not quite be that. It's reasonable to think that, though none of the students in the Selected Group were eligible for the school lunch program. Private school students in that group may have been from wealthier families on average. Just the fact that they were in private schools suggests that possibility.

One thing I find particularly interesting is that, once you come at least close to comparing apples to apples in terms of students, there is absolutely no suggestion of a private school advantage in Mathematics and Science. None whatsoever.

The year each test was administered is in parenthesis. "Statistical ties" are in red text.

Civics (2010)

All Students: Private 169, Public 150 p = <0.0001
Selected Group: Private 175, Public 169 p = 0.1297

Geography (2010)

All Students: Private 276, Public 260 p = <0,0001
Selected Group: Private 287, Public 281 p = 0.0322

Mathematics (2013)

All Students: Private 297, Public 284 p <0.0001
Selected Group: Private 303, Public 305 p = 0.4090

Music (2008)

All Students: Private 163, Public 149 p = 0.0001
Selected Group: Private 174, Public 171 p = 0.4169

Reading (2013)

All Students: Private 285, Public 266 p < 0.0001
Selected Group: Private 292, Public 285 p = 0.0001

Science (2011)

All Students: Private 163, Public 152 p <0.0001
Selected Group: Private 172, Public 172, p = 0.9616

US History (2010)

All Students: Private 280, Public 265 p <0.0001
Selected Group: Private 286, Public 282 p = 0.2753

Visual Arts (2008)

All Students: Private 159, Public 149 p = 0.0835
Selected Group: Private 170, Public 170 p = 0.8110

Writing (2011)

All Students: Private 164, Public 149 p <0.0001
Selected Group: Private 170, Public 168 p = 0.4838

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:32 am**

20% School
80% Student............Students have gone to the worst schools in the inner city and have gone on to college and become good people. Private schools are way overrated!!!!

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:07 am**

mrklean wrote:20% School
80% Student............Students have gone to the worst schools in the inner city and have gone on to college and become good people. Private schools are way overrated!!!!

We all know students that went to private schools and have amounted to nothing. We all know kids that went to public schools and have done well for themselves. My neighbors are not involved in their children's lives or school work (which is amazing considering one is a teacher) and they complain about the grades and the fact their 10 yr old daughter can hardly read. But they are extreme Democrats so you can't tell them anything.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:13 am**

FWIW, around here many of the public schools score much higher on standardized tests than their private counterparts. We are lucky to have great public schools, but I still chose to send my kids to private schools because a higher percentage of the parents are involved heavily in the schools and their children, unlike Mark's neighbors. There are still plenty of the drop and dash parents, but you're going to find that anywhere.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:16 am**

No shit. Private schools (at least in south Alabama where I grew up) were started after Brown v. Board so that the kids of wealthy whites wouldn't have to send their kids to school with black kids.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:19 am**

Skjellyfetti wrote:No shit. Private schools (at least in south Alabama where I grew up) were started after Brown v. Board so that the kids of wealthy whites wouldn't have to send their kids to school with black kids.

Both of my kids private HS's have a higher percentage of minorities than our public HS.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:26 am**

It's not really any different from what I've been telling our Furman and Wofford friends for years now.
I would put the academic acumen of the top 2800 students at big directional state U up against the 2800 strong Furman student body, or the 1400 strong Wofford student body anytime.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:30 am**

89Hen wrote:FWIW, around here many of the public schools score much higher on standardized tests than their private counterparts. We are lucky to have great public schools, but I still chose to send my kids to private schools because a higher percentage of the parents are involved heavily in the schools and their children, unlike Mark's neighbors. There are still plenty of the drop and dash parents, but you're going to find that anywhere.

Despite the outliers, the parental involvement in private schools (exclusive of boarding schools) is much higher than in public schools. My experience has been that teachers in private schools have much lower numbers of students in their classrooms, they involve the kids with "hands on" learning through physical experiments (instead of teaching with hand outs/teaching to a book), and there are many more field trips. Learning is holistic. Most importantly, the teachers and administrators are MUCH more proactive when communicating with the children and parents. In addition, if the private school is K-12, then the teachers/administrators/parents get to know a good portion of the students and other parents throughout their stay. A private school of that sort is more of an extended family, which has a lot of other benefits as well.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:32 am**

Baldy wrote:It's not really any different from what I've been telling our Furman and Wofford friends for years now.
I would put the academic acumen of the top 2800 students at big directional state U up against the 2800 strong Furman student body, or the 1400 strong Wofford student body anytime.

That's some funny math there, Baldy.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:34 am**

mrklean wrote:20% School
80% Student............Students have gone to the worst schools in the inner city and have gone on to college and become good people. Private schools are way overrated!!!!

We already know you are a cheap bastard and you don't want to pay for your son's education. Keep rolling the dice, and if it doesn't work out, you can blame The MAN!

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:35 am**

Cluck U wrote:
89Hen wrote:FWIW, around here many of the public schools score much higher on standardized tests than their private counterparts. We are lucky to have great public schools, but I still chose to send my kids to private schools because a higher percentage of the parents are involved heavily in the schools and their children, unlike Mark's neighbors. There are still plenty of the drop and dash parents, but you're going to find that anywhere.
Despite the outliers, the parental involvement in private schools (exclusive of boarding schools) is much higher than in public schools. My experience has been that teachers in private schools have much lower numbers of students in their classrooms, they involve the kids with "hands on" learning through physical experiments (instead of teaching with hand outs/teaching to a book), and there are many more field trips. Learning is holistic. Most importantly, the teachers and administrators are MUCH more proactive when communicating with the children and parents. In addition, if the private school is K-12, then the teachers/administrators/parents get to know a good portion of the students and other parents throughout their stay. A private school of that sort is more of an extended family, which has a lot of other benefits as well.

You're describing our public schools.

Of course I'm biased, being the son of a public school teacher and a directional school prof. Back in the day, they claimed private school teachers in Spokane were the rejects who couldn't get a job in the public schools.

They knew, taught, and coached against many of them.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:47 am**

I was a public school kid but one of the things that private high schools did was provide opportunities that the publics did not necessarily. There was a local private school whose students that had as a safety school schools like Georgetown. If you can go to higher tier colleges, all things being equal, you will have a better opportunity to get a better job because the "right companies" recruit there.

The only question is is paying $30,000 + a year for high school (and maybe middle school) worth it? For some yes, for some no.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:56 am**

tribe_pride wrote:The only question is is paying $30,000 + a year for high school (and maybe middle school) worth it? For some yes, for some no.

Around here... yes in most cases. It's a strange phenomenon, but around here when somebody ask you where you went to school, they're referring to HS and not college. The networking of jobs is FAR more centered around private HS alums. You'd be better off paying $20k a year for HS and going to a state college than the other way around. I'm sure we're the exception though.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 am**

kalm wrote:You're describing our public schools.

I think the difference is how big a community is.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:07 am**

Cluck U wrote:
Baldy wrote:It's not really any different from what I've been telling our Furman and Wofford friends for years now.
I would put the academic acumen of the top 2800 students at big directional state U up against the 2800 strong Furman student body, or the 1400 strong Wofford student body anytime.

That's some funny math there, Baldy.

You get the gist of the argument, Clucky.
Are you going to try to refute it or you just being be a dickhead?

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:13 am**

89Hen wrote:
tribe_pride wrote:The only question is is paying $30,000 + a year for high school (and maybe middle school) worth it? For some yes, for some no.
Around here... yes in most cases. It's a strange phenomenon, but around here when somebody ask you where you went to school, they're referring to HS and not college. The networking of jobs is FAR more centered around private HS alums. You'd be better off paying $20k a year for HS and going to a state college than the other way around. I'm sure we're the exception though.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:17 am**

kalm wrote: You're describing our public schools.

Of course I'm biased, being the son of a public school teacher and a directional school prof. Back in the day, they claimed private school teachers in Spokane were the rejects who couldn't get a job in the public schools. They knew, taught, and coached against many of them.

Here in upstate Delaware, we don't have K-12 public schools (Newark Charter - definitely not your typical public school, but still falling short in several areas versus a private school - being the recent exception). The high schools take kids from various feeder schools (elementary, middle) and mash them together into larger high schools. Teachers simply cannot not have relationships where they see their students grow up from K-12...it is not physically possible. Even Newark Charter has two separate campuses a mile-plus away from each other.

My mother was a public school teacher for many years, as is my wife, and my wife's mother. I am a product of a private school, a boarding school, though I did not board. I have to say, my school was a fvck load of fun with the after school life due to the boarding part.

Anyway, I believe the deciding factor in all this is that my wife is a product of a good PA public high school, however, I know how to cook steaks medium rare, which seems to be the only thing related to food that my wife can't do well...and I blame that on her public school education that did not allow her to experiment with fire in an outdoor setting.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:30 am**

89Hen wrote:
tribe_pride wrote:The only question is is paying $30,000 + a year for high school (and maybe middle school) worth it? For some yes, for some no.
Around here... yes in most cases. It's a strange phenomenon, but around here when somebody ask you where you went to school, they're referring to HS and not college. The networking of jobs is FAR more centered around private HS alums. You'd be better off paying $20k a year for HS and going to a state college than the other way around. I'm sure we're the exception though.

I've noticed that too - my wife went to THE girls school in Bethesda and later to Bucknell. She is way more connected through the primary school crowd and could care less about Bucknell outside of two of her old sorority sisters.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:31 am**

Baldy wrote:
Cluck U wrote:

That's some funny math there, Baldy.
You get the gist of the argument, Clucky.
Are you going to try to refute it or you just being be a dickhead?

If you say you want to take the top students of a large, State school school and put them up against the entire student body of a smaller school, then yeah, you should find they do fine most of the time. But, if you compare the entire student bodies of Harvard versus Delaware State, then I think you'll find a world of difference.

BTW, we did have some lower performing mouth breathers occasionally at my school. Their parents had money and put them in a boarding school to keep them out of their hair, usually after they got kicked out of whatever school they were in, while the parents jetted around the world. However, those kids were usually kicked out pretty quickly. I remember one clown filling in circles in the shape of a Christmas tree for a standardized test. Saw him later wearing ripped jeans and a t-shirt, with a choo-choo hat (I'm not kidding) and a chain attached to his wallet, at the mall...clearly in a daze from his not-so-recreational drugs.

Our high school classes usually had a 100% college participation rate simply because it was expected...we were a college prep school. Is everyone a millionaire? Probably not, but most of my classmates (class of 42 people) are successful.

Anyway, I've gone on too long and owe 86 a few of these...

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:40 am**

Around here the magnet programs at the public schools are very good. Outside of the magnet programs - not so good.

Private schools around here are so that the children of wealthy people can go to school with the kids of other weathy people. It's a status thing.

Actually, many wealthy parents in the area still opt for public school if they get their kids into the right program. My middle two girls all seem to have school friends whose parents are doctors. My wife and I must know a couple dozen doctors. It's almost weird.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:10 am**

89Hen wrote:
tribe_pride wrote:The only question is is paying $30,000 + a year for high school (and maybe middle school) worth it? For some yes, for some no.
Around here... yes in most cases. It's a strange phenomenon, but around here when somebody ask you where you went to school, they're referring to HS and not college. The networking of jobs is FAR more centered around private HS alums. You'd be better off paying $20k a year for HS and going to a state college than the other way around. I'm sure we're the exception though.

Charleston is the same way. If you say you attended The Citadel, Porter Gaud or Bishop England, then you have a good change of landing a job. The network of those 3 schools alum is incredible.

Spoiler: show: I'm a Bishop England grad.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:13 am**

Ibanez wrote:
89Hen wrote: Around here... yes in most cases. It's a strange phenomenon, but around here when somebody ask you where you went to school, they're referring to HS and not college. The networking of jobs is FAR more centered around private HS alums. You'd be better off paying $20k a year for HS and going to a state college than the other way around. I'm sure we're the exception though.
Charleston is the same way. If you say you attended The Citadel, Porter Gaud or Bishop England, then you have a good change of landing a job. The network of those 3 schools alum is incredible.

There's a bit of a joke that all of the police in the Charleston Metro area are either Citadel alum, prior military or both.

Spoiler: show
I'm a Bishop England grad.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:32 am**

Ibanez wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Charleston is the same way. If you say you attended The Citadel, Porter Gaud or Bishop England, then you have a good change of landing a job. The network of those 3 schools alum is incredible.

There's a bit of a joke that all of the police in the Charleston Metro area are either Citadel alum, prior military or both.

Spoiler: show
I'm a Bishop England grad.

I heard Bishop England grads have a hard time mastering even simple tasks, like the quote function.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:39 am**

The best drugs, and the biggest drug dealers, always came from the private schools.

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:40 am**

bandl wrote:The best drugs, and the biggest drug dealers, always came from the private schools.

This is true. We had many drug busts.

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