The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

GannonFan wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:43 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:25 am

Ah, the whole "holy ground fallacy" to try and discredit a disagreement. You keep trying to pin morality on me, when I'm trying to talk facts.

Regardless of what has happened, my stance has always been about ending this as quickly as possible, or more importantly, before it started. You seem to want to "stick it to Putin" with total disregard as to who's children you are throwing into the meat grinder.

Where was your outrage over the US and UK scuttling peace talks back in March/April timeframe?

Now to really get you going. Putin is now calling this a war on terror! Just like the US. Now that gives him carte blanche to swoop into any country that's threatening his new Oblasts and act like the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. This part is trolling, but Putin did declare it to be a war on terror.
No one wanted to "stick it to Putin". Show me the poster on this board who "hoped" for Putin to launch an invasion? No one. And the US was very clear well before this happened that they didn't want Putin to invade either. I'm no Biden fan, but he was right on the money in this case. Everyone encouraged Putin not to invade, but he wanted the territory to be part of an empire building exercise and that's what he's doing. Imagine all the people who would be alive today, and in their homes today, had Putin not decided to launch a war (no matter what you try to call it, it still amounts to warfare).

And stop making the false equivalencies to past US actions. You were never able to name a territory that the US took from another country in the past 80 years as the result of a similar aggressive action. Even through the US's "War on Terror" it never approached anything like we're seeing today, where one nation attacks another nation in an attempted land grab. You failed to make that connection before and you continue to do that now. Your Russian minders are striking out making that connection - you need to ask for better material. Try again.
I like how you gloss over the parts you don't like. I was talking about you sticking it to Putin now, not before. So angry at his "empire building", it doesn't matter the US/UK scuttled talks way back when much damage could have been avoided.

The US was clear they didn't want Putin to invade? Well, that then makes it okay that when Russia wanted negotiate before, they were rebuffed? Is that why Russia said Ukraine joining NATO was a red line, but Biden said he would bring them on board and they acted like joining was an option?

In regards to my false equivalency, I'm not talking about the US taking over a country, but using false pretenses to invade and killing thousands of civilians. Admit it bro. You're a straight up neocon who only cares about your version of events.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Skjellyfetti »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:17 pm The Kherson counteroffensive was an utter failure. There is no denying that.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

Anyone want to take bets on the rationalization we hear?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:17 am
SDHornet wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:17 pm The Kherson counteroffensive was an utter failure. There is no denying that.
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Lol.

I was just gonna say…at least the alt right still has Kherson!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

I'm taking Putin in the 2023 Death Pool. Anyone else takes him they're a copycat. :kisswink:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Silenoz wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:15 pm Anyone want to take bets on the rationalization we hear?
"Kherson was a feint."

"Abandoning Kherson was an gesture of goodwill."
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:57 am
Silenoz wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:15 pm Anyone want to take bets on the rationalization we hear?
"Kherson was a feint."

"Abandoning Kherson was an gesture of goodwill."
How about it was a difficult place to defend and supply, so it's wiser to retreat to ground where they won't be isolated if the dam is blown?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Skjellyfetti »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:59 am
Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:57 am

"Kherson was a feint."

"Abandoning Kherson was an gesture of goodwill."
How about it was a difficult place to defend and supply, so it's wiser to retreat to ground where they won't be isolated if the dam is blown?
Well, they had a pretty defensible position along the Inhulets River when the offensive started that SDHornet was really excited about (before Ukraine broke through :lol: ).
SDHornet wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:05 pm
Skjellyfetti wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:19 pm Yeah, SDHornet is going to eat his words. The Russians West of the Dnipro have no resupply route. Ukraine is advancing slower in Kharkiv but the Kherson counteroffensive isn't over and certainly not an "utter failure." Lol.
Anyone claiming the Kerson counteroffensive wasn't a failure just isn't paying attention. At best you can claim it was a feign for the Kharkov counteroffensive.

Ukraine make their push past the Oskil River yet?

Speaking of rivers, Ukraine manage to set new pontoon bridges to get their forces over the Inhulets River yet?

Looking forward to y'all having to justify their retreat from the Dnipro River next. My guess is in the Spring... but, you never know. :D
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:59 am
Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:57 am

"Kherson was a feint."

"Abandoning Kherson was an gesture of goodwill."
How about it was a difficult place to defend and supply, so it's wiser to retreat to ground where they won't be isolated if the dam is blown?
Difficult? To defend from whom? You said they were having an easy time of it and that Ukraine's military was being cut to pieces. What possible strength could the Ukrainian army even have left considering the significant blows the Russian machine has already inflicted on them. :rofl:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:57 am
Silenoz wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:15 pm Anyone want to take bets on the rationalization we hear?
"Kherson was a feint."

"Abandoning Kherson was an gesture of goodwill."
Maybe Kherson is too muddy. Who wants it anyway.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:24 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:59 am

How about it was a difficult place to defend and supply, so it's wiser to retreat to ground where they won't be isolated if the dam is blown?
Difficult? To defend from whom? You said they were having an easy time of it and that Ukraine's military was being cut to pieces. What possible strength could the Ukrainian army even have left considering the significant blows the Russian machine has already inflicted on them. :rofl:
Ukraine's military is not inept and I've never implied that. In fact they have been prepping for war with Russia for eight years. They simply don't have as good a weapons/capabilities. All the newer equipment they receive also requires them to learn new systems and isn't what they have practiced with.

There will always be situations where they can negate this advantage like here or in urban settings. Russia is chewing them up in areas where it's an artillery battle, which was a large portion previously. That fighting has now slowed down due to the sloppy conditions.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:53 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:24 am

Difficult? To defend from whom? You said they were having an easy time of it and that Ukraine's military was being cut to pieces. What possible strength could the Ukrainian army even have left considering the significant blows the Russian machine has already inflicted on them. :rofl:
Ukraine's military is not inept and I've never implied that. In fact they have been prepping for war with Russia for eight years. They simply don't have as good a weapons/capabilities. All the newer equipment they receive also requires them to learn new systems and isn't what they have practiced with.

There will always be situations where they can negate this advantage like here or in urban settings. Russia is chewing them up in areas where it's an artillery battle, which was a large portion previously. That fighting has now slowed down due to the sloppy conditions.
Retreat (all who have survived) so we can chew them up from over there. Master strategist!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:55 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:53 am

Ukraine's military is not inept and I've never implied that. In fact they have been prepping for war with Russia for eight years. They simply don't have as good a weapons/capabilities. All the newer equipment they receive also requires them to learn new systems and isn't what they have practiced with.

There will always be situations where they can negate this advantage like here or in urban settings. Russia is chewing them up in areas where it's an artillery battle, which was a large portion previously. That fighting has now slowed down due to the sloppy conditions.
Retreat (all who have survived) so we can chew them up from over there. Master strategist!
:lol: Yes, with the river at their backs and no way to retreat quickly if Ukraine comes at them, it makes perfect sense to sit there and wait. I'm just wondering why Russia isn't following your guys theory of just throwing bodies into the buzzsaw.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:53 am Russia is chewing them up in areas where it's an artillery battle, which was a large portion previously.
It's okay. Admitting one is wrong is a terribly difficult process. Especially on the internet. And god knows no one on CS has ever admitted to being wrong about anything. :rofl:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

Those conscripted troops with zero training will save the day!



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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Silenoz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:15 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:53 am Russia is chewing them up in areas where it's an artillery battle, which was a large portion previously.
It's okay. Admitting one is wrong is a terribly difficult process. Especially on the internet. And god knows no one on CS has ever admitted to being wrong about anything. :rofl:
As I've said, I'll admit I'm wrong if Ukraine is able to pull out the victory. I just simply don't believe they have the weapons overall to beat Russia and with that, would hope negotiations start soon.

I was in the Army Reserves for 10 years. In that short period, I worked with two individuals who went over to Kuwait in combat arms positions. Needless to say, they did not want to talk about the war at all. I had to assume they either saw people being killed or had to "pull the trigger" themselves. The one guy was our company commander's son, who went to West Point. All that training and after one trip to Iraq, he was changed.

In addition, when my Reserve returned from being sent to the United Arab Emirates, somewhere around 10 nurses resigned their commissions and left the Army. Our unit was stationed over 1500 miles away from any sort of action, but the constant worry got to them. I can't imagine how awful fighting this war must be. It's why I signed up for medical. I knew there was no way in hell I could kill someone else.

Edit: I'm referring to the Gulf war in both.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

Yes and my brother had a real fun time in Afghanistan and my surgeon buddy had a great time being repeatedly rocket'd in Iraq. Now imagine those experiences, only 80,000 (and counting) of your buddies and brothers-at-arms were blown apart next to you. Our Middle East fiascos are peanuts compared to what is happening here.

Define win

Preventing the regime change or assassination of Zelenskyy?
Stopping the invasion of Kyiv?
Taking back territory? Taking back ALL of the territory? Taking back Crimea?

Look at prognostications in February. Ukraine is pilling up the wins.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:12 am
kalm wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:55 am

Retreat (all who have survived) so we can chew them up from over there. Master strategist!
:lol: Yes, with the river at their backs and no way to retreat quickly if Ukraine comes at them, it makes perfect sense to sit there and wait. I'm just wondering why Russia isn't following your guys theory of just throwing bodies into the buzzsaw.
Maybe they're running out of bodies to throw "into the buzzsaw" and that's the real reason for the mobilization.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Lol

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:12 am
kalm wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:55 am

Retreat (all who have survived) so we can chew them up from over there. Master strategist!
:lol: Yes, with the river at their backs and no way to retreat quickly if Ukraine comes at them, it makes perfect sense to sit there and wait. I'm just wondering why Russia isn't following your guys theory of just throwing bodies into the buzzsaw.
1). They are.

2). Who backed them into that corner?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

Silenoz wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:15 pm Anyone want to take bets on the rationalization we hear?
And the results are in!

"Genius tactical repositioning" is our winner!

Goddamn, how does Russia make it look so easy?

Hopefully our generals are over there taking notes. I wonder if we could invade Mexico and use Russian tactics to pull it off with only 100K+ KIA. We may only end up with like 10% of the country, but that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Plenty of warm bodies in the South that need to be put to use anyways!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by dbackjon »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:11 pm I'm taking Putin in the 2023 Death Pool. Anyone else takes him they're a copycat. :kisswink:
Quick, I need a list of Russian Generals!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Silenoz »

Sounds like the Russians had a great time over the last few hours. I look forward to reading about it tomorrow :lol:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

One would expect Ukraine to make a huge push right now if Russia is retreating, wouldn't you think? Kinda makes you wonder why Russia would announce such a move in advance.

I read someone asking that elsewhere and it does make some sense. Not sure what, but just doesn't seem to square.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by ∞∞∞ »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:58 am Kinda makes you wonder why Russia would announce such a move in advance.
I think you're overthinking this. Why has any military, in the history of warfare, announced retreats in advanced (including the US)?

It's as simple as: enemies (and people in general) are less likely to attack those retreating. You save your resources. For your enemy: they've already won so there's no point in sacrificing their own resources, and sometimes they look benevolent.

The general rule of thumb is that people don't like killing each other. Announcing retreats plays into that psychology.
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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