The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

BDKJMU wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:48 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:27 am

Lithuania can do whatever the heck they want to do. Russia doesn't own the ground in Lithuania. They have no inherent right to have rail access through that country. If Russia wants to ship things that are on the sanctioned list (and there are plenty of things, including passengers, that aren't on the sanction list so there is plenty that can be shipped through Lithuania at this time) the Russia can put them on a boat and sail those things to Kaliningrad. No one's blockading anything, there's free access through the Baltic. But if you're going to be a belligerent nation who launches offensive wars of destruction on your neighbors in an attempt to take territory and build an empire, then you have to realize that not everyone is going to play nice with you.
GF is right here..
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:34 pm The rules changed when Russia invaded Ukraine. It's on them that all of their agreements were up for reinterpretation after that.

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So you're in the rules based instead of law based. What happens when the rules change in a bad way for you, or America?

The mob mentality is seductive.
No. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."

Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:01 pm
SeattleGriz wrote:
So you're in the rules based instead of law based. What happens when the rules change in a bad way for you, or America?

The mob mentality is seductive.
No. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."

Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.

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What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.

If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.

Let's change this up.

Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »


SeattleGriz wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:01 pm No. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."

Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.

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What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.

If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.

Let's change this up.

Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
Circular logic. The most egregious violation of laws and agreements was by Putin. If we have mob rule, he's responsible.

Stop trying to deflect the spotlight away from Vlad.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:43 pm
SeattleGriz wrote:
What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.

If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.

Let's change this up.

Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
Circular logic. The most egregious violation of laws and agreements was by Putin. If we have mob rule, he's responsible.

Stop trying to deflect the spotlight away from Vlad.

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Circular logic. :lol:

How about some links to back up all your claims?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:25 pm
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:27 am

Lithuania can do whatever the heck they want to do. Russia doesn't own the ground in Lithuania. They have no inherent right to have rail access through that country. If Russia wants to ship things that are on the sanctioned list (and there are plenty of things, including passengers, that aren't on the sanction list so there is plenty that can be shipped through Lithuania at this time) the Russia can put them on a boat and sail those things to Kaliningrad. No one's blockading anything, there's free access through the Baltic. But if you're going to be a belligerent nation who launches offensive wars of destruction on your neighbors in an attempt to take territory and build an empire, then you have to realize that not everyone is going to play nice with you.
The issue, as I'm understanding it, is that Russia and Lithuania have an agreement with wording that specifies how this agreement can be severed, and this isn't how it's done. In addition, the materials being transported were not listed as items the EU was sanctioning. So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules.

It's a little extreme, but what happens when the mob determines what rules they want to make and keep?

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:05 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:01 pm No. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."

Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.

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What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.

If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.

Let's change this up.

Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
Lets. Why doesn't Putin withdraw his invasion force from Ukraine?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »


SeattleGriz wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:43 pm

Circular logic. The most egregious violation of laws and agreements was by Putin. If we have mob rule, he's responsible.

Stop trying to deflect the spotlight away from Vlad.

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Circular logic. Image

How about some links to back up all your claims?
You need links to show that Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine (the most egregious violation of laws and agreements) without substantive provocation?

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:52 pm
SeattleGriz wrote:
Circular logic. Image

How about some links to back up all your claims?
You need links to show that Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine (the most egregious violation of laws and agreements) without substantive provocation?

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You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember, 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud took us to the Iraq war. Did we find WNDs? I believed there were WMDs, but now we all know it was an "intelligence failure". Just like that intelligence failure when we droned that Afghani man and his eight kids collecting water right before leaving Afghanistan.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »


SeattleQriz wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:52 pm

You need links to show that Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine (the most egregious violation of laws and agreements) without substantive provocation?

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You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember right before the troops left Afghanistan? Remember our intelligence forces targeting the Afghani and then vaporizing his whole family because he was collecting/passing out water? Or 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud led to the Iraq war and how many countless civilians were droned or bombed? We find those WMDs? At this point, I'm not sure I trust much that comes out of our government.
Believing that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.

Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:23 am
SeattleQriz wrote:
You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember right before the troops left Afghanistan? Remember our intelligence forces targeting the Afghani and then vaporizing his whole family because he was collecting/passing out water? Or 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud led to the Iraq war and how many countless civilians were droned or bombed? We find those WMDs? At this point, I'm not sure I trust much that comes out of our government.
Believing that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.

Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.

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I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.

How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.

If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?

Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.

Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!

Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:10 am
UNI88 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:23 am

Believing that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.

Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.

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I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.

How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.

If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?

Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.

Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!

Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
The US has been a bad actor and often for corporate gain rather than in support of democracy and virtue.

Putin is still 100% responsible here.

You can recognize both. It’s really not that hard.

Not to mention, war relegates standards even more meaningless.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by BDKJMU »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:28 am
SDHornet wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:09 pm This should end well. Something something NATO doesn't start wars or something...

Let me know when NATO starts a war. I'll be waiting.
Well, there was Bosnia-Herzgovenia. NATO didn’t start that, but intervended even though no NATO country was attacked.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »


SeattleGriz wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:23 am Believing that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.

Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.

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I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.

How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.

If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?

Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.

Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!

Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
How is repeatedly bringing up US (or NATO) actions in a thread about Ukraine not a deflection or attempted hijack?



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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

SG is approaching JSO crazy in this thread. Russia invaded Ukraine with the express interest of expanding their empire. They've actually said it. False equivalencies with the US/Iraq (we never mentioned Iraq, and we never took permanently any part of Iraq) are just weak attempts to get around the very simple narrative which, actually, is true - Russia was never in danger of being attacked and they attacked Ukraine without provocation for the simple fact that they wanted to dominate a weaker neighbor and take their land. All the protestations can't get around that very simple fact.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:21 am
SDHornet wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:46 pm

This guy has been wrong quite a bit...but good on him for finally realizing what was obvious in the early part of the war once NATO wasn't sending in troops and planes.
I’m just glad you follow him enough to think he’s been wrong quite a bit. :thumb:
I've been following both sides to get a picture of what is going on over there. As with most issues, you have to read between the lines to get the true story. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the gaslighting and propaganda can't cover for what is really happening on the ground anymore.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:28 am
SDHornet wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:09 pm This should end well. Something something NATO doesn't start wars or something...

Let me know when NATO starts a war. I'll be waiting.
Seriously? :lol:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

BDKJMU wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:46 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:28 am

Let me know when NATO starts a war. I'll be waiting.
Well, there was Bosnia-Herzgovenia. NATO didn’t start that, but intervended even though no NATO country was attacked.
And now NATO is siding in a war that isn't a NATO member...but don't tell that to Ganny. :coffee:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm
SeattleGriz wrote:
I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.

How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.

If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?

Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.

Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!

Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
How is repeatedly bringing up US (or NATO) actions in a thread about Ukraine not a deflection or attempted hijack?



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Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.

There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

BTW, rout is on in the Donbass. Sounds like a total collapse of Ukrainian forces.

Last edited by SDHornet on Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SDHornet »

Oh.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SDHornet wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm How is repeatedly bringing up US (or NATO) actions in a thread about Ukraine not a deflection or attempted hijack?



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Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.

There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
So what does what the US did in Iraq or Afghanistan or NATO did in Bosnia have to do with Ukraine and why are they repeatedly brought up in a thread about Ukraine?

If someone feels strongly that US transgressions and hypocrisy need to be discussed they should start a thread about them.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 am
SDHornet wrote:
Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.

There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
So what does what the US did in Iraq or Afghanistan or NATO did in Bosnia have to do with Ukraine and why are they repeatedly brought up in a thread about Ukraine?

If someone feels strongly that US transgressions and hypocrisy need to be discussed they should start a thread about them.

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But then he’d be agreeing with the left… :tiptoe:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

GannonFan wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:47 pm SG is approaching JSO crazy in this thread. Russia invaded Ukraine with the express interest of expanding their empire. They've actually said it. False equivalencies with the US/Iraq (we never mentioned Iraq, and we never took permanently any part of Iraq) are just weak attempts to get around the very simple narrative which, actually, is true - Russia was never in danger of being attacked and they attacked Ukraine without provocation for the simple fact that they wanted to dominate a weaker neighbor and take their land. All the protestations can't get around that very simple fact.
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