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Once again, as happens time after time, scientists have performed yet another investigation concerning the shroud and have reached conclusions supporting authenticity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ectly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is remarkable how scrutiny by learned and advanced men of science continues to reveal evidence supporting authenticity. In contrast to this vast army of scientists, the leading "authorities" asserting that the shroud is fake is (i) a kooky literature professor by the name of Joe Nickell -- who has no background at all in science -- and (ii) a former UNI football player.

JoltinJoe wrote:Once again, as happens time after time, scientists have performed yet another investigation concerning the shroud and have reached conclusions supporting authenticity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ectly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is remarkable how scrutiny by learned and advanced men of science continues to reveal evidence supporting authenticity. In contrast to this vast army of scientists, the leading "authorities" asserting that the shroud is fake is (i) a kooky literature professor by the name of Joe Nickell -- who has no background at all in science -- and (ii) a former UNI football player.

What about the ascension?

kalm wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:Once again, as happens time after time, scientists have performed yet another investigation concerning the shroud and have reached conclusions supporting authenticity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ectly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is remarkable how scrutiny by learned and advanced men of science continues to reveal evidence supporting authenticity. In contrast to this vast army of scientists, the leading "authorities" asserting that the shroud is fake is (i) a kooky literature professor by the name of Joe Nickell -- who has no background at all in science -- and (ii) a former UNI football player.

What about the ascension?

Or a virgin giving birth. Very interested to know what scientists think about that.

kalm wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:Once again, as happens time after time, scientists have performed yet another investigation concerning the shroud and have reached conclusions supporting authenticity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ectly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is remarkable how scrutiny by learned and advanced men of science continues to reveal evidence supporting authenticity. In contrast to this vast army of scientists, the leading "authorities" asserting that the shroud is fake is (i) a kooky literature professor by the name of Joe Nickell -- who has no background at all in science -- and (ii) a former UNI football player.

What about the ascension?

What about it? "The kingdom is within your midst." Luke 17:21. Sounds like he didn't have that far to go.

Or, if you prefer: "We have a hard time visualizing more than three dimensions to space, but this is just a limitation of our imagination, many of our theories can be formaulated in any number of dimensions. However, some theories are only mathematically consistent if space has a certain number of dimensions: for example, superstring theory needs nine spatial dimensions. It therefore seems very plausible that there are extra dimensions of space, and that we don't observe them in everyday life ..." The Berkeley Center for Theoretical Physics. http://ctp.berkeley.edu/extraD.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Sorry, but I knew you were about to hit me with a Carl Sagan quote).

Grizalltheway wrote:

kalm wrote:
What about the ascension?

Or a virgin giving birth. Very interested to know what scientists think about that.

Scientists would have no explanation for it, at least today, and therefore we would consider it a miracle.

Nonetheless, there are likely rational explanations for what we consider miraculous, but we lack the knowledge to explain it. We probably have identified less than 1% of scientific truth, so there is a lot we don't understand yet.

JoltinJoe wrote:

kalm wrote:
What about the ascension?

What about it? "The kingdom is within your midst." Luke 17:21. Sounds like he didn't have that far to go.

Or, if you prefer: "We have a hard time visualizing more than three dimensions to space, but this is just a limitation of our imagination, many of our theories can be formaulated in any number of dimensions. However, some theories are only mathematically consistent if space has a certain number of dimensions: for example, superstring theory needs nine spatial dimensions. It therefore seems very plausible that there are extra dimensions of space, and that we don't observe them in everyday life ..." The Berkeley Center for Theoretical Physics. http://ctp.berkeley.edu/extraD.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Sorry, but I knew you were about to hit me with a Carl Sagan quote).

Great...so he went off and hid for 2000 years in some dimension we can't detect.

Forget it Joe, they perish with their "wisdom", I Corinthians 1:18-25

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Oh and by the way boys, this was a sermon's scripture from a LIBERAL Lutheran minister I had the privilege of hearing 2 weeks ago.

FCS PATRIOTS wrote:Forget it Joe, they perish with their "wisdom", I Corinthians 1:18-25

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Oh and by the way boys, this was a sermon's scripture from a LIBERAL Lutheran minister I had the privilege of hearing 2 weeks ago.

I'm neither wise or intelligent. I'd just like some straight forward answers...dammit!

FCS PATRIOTS wrote:Forget it Joe, they perish with their "wisdom", I Corinthians 1:18-25

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Oh and by the way boys, this was a sermon's scripture from a LIBERAL Lutheran minister I had the privilege of hearing 2 weeks ago.

Hey weren't you supposed to be quitting this board because you are a fvcking nut and you need help or something?

The Shroud should be torn and used for toilet paper, it would be more useful. This proves nothing. It could be the burial shroud of anyone from that time. Blah blah blah.

Vidav wrote:The Shroud should be torn and used for toilet paper, it would be more useful. This proves nothing. It could be the burial shroud of anyone from that time. Blah blah blah.

Not exactly. Forensic pathologists have confirmed:

(1) The person on the shroud was a victim of a Roman crucifixion. The wounds depicted on the shroud accurately depict the wounds of a Roman crucifixion.

(2) In addition to the normal wounds of a Roman crucifixion victim, the victim on the shroud was scourged, and bears numerous such wounds on his back -- consistent with the Gospel accounts that Jesus was scourged, prior to crucifixion.

(3) The victim also has at least eight puncture wounds around his scalp, caused by thorns-- consistent with the Gospel accounts that a "crown" of thorns was placed around Jesus' head.

(4) The victim has a gaping wound in his side, a piercing between his fifth and sixth rib -- consistent with Gospel accounts that Jesus' side was pierced.

Essentially, the man on the shroud could be any crucifixion victim who was crucified precisely as described in the Gospels.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ca ... 42100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More science supports a later domestication of camels...

So what?

kalm wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ca ... 42100.html

More science supports a later domestication of camels...

Am I missing something here?

JoltinJoe wrote:So what?

It suggests the bible was written long after events that were detailed in it. In other words it wouldn't be a direct account.

I think the shroud is facinating and maybe it's just me, but I think this sounds just a tad far fetched...

An Italian team at the Politecnico di Torino, a well respected Italian University, claims the powerful magnitude 8.2 earthquake, which occurred in Old Jerusalem in the year 33 AD, would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock.

The flood of neutrons may have imprinted an X-ray-like image onto the linen burial cloth by reacting with nitrogen nuclei, say the researchers.

kalm wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:So what?

It suggests the bible was written long after events that were detailed in it. In other words it wouldn't be a direct account.

But we knew that about Genesis already.

We also know that the Gospels were formally written within the generation of those who actually knew Jesus.

SunCoastBlueHen wrote:I think the shroud is facinating and maybe it's just me, but I think this sounds just a tad far fetched...

An Italian team at the Politecnico di Torino, a well respected Italian University, claims the powerful magnitude 8.2 earthquake, which occurred in Old Jerusalem in the year 33 AD, would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock.

The flood of neutrons may have imprinted an X-ray-like image onto the linen burial cloth by reacting with nitrogen nuclei, say the researchers.

Perhaps.

Nonetheless, there is something remarkable about the image. Science has offered no reasonable explanation to date concerning how the image was created. The image is: (i) a negative image(!); (ii) three-dimensional; (iii) not painted.

Moreover, it contains detail not evident to the human eye which only becomes visible through digital imaging. How could an artist in the Middle Ages have done that?

I knew a pathologist who actually handled and examined the shroud, and wrote extensively about it. He said he had no scientific explanation for what he observed on the shroud, but that the silliest opinion about the shroud was that it was painted by an artist in the Middle Ages. That claim was ridiculous, he said.

Nah, it's much more likely an 8th century Monk would've known how to create such a hoax that would fool 21st century science.

JoltinJoe wrote:

kalm wrote:
It suggests the bible was written long after events that were detailed in it. In other words it wouldn't be a direct account.

But we knew that about Genesis already.

We also know that the Gospels were formally written within the generation of those who actually knew Jesus.

Good god it's tough keeping track of all this.

Joe, do you believe all Catholic relics are legitimate?

I don't see anywhere in the report that science supports it.

A whole lot of "mays" "could be" and "possibles"

Skjellyfetti wrote:Joe, do you believe all Catholic relics are legitimate?

Of course not. And I never really believed the Shroud was authentic either. I accepted the 1988 Carbon-14 testing. It wasn't until my father-in-law introduced me to his lifelong friend, a noted pathologist who had done a forensic study of the shroud, that I began to think it might be real. He himself started out skeptical, but he became astounded when he observed just how accurate the wounds on the shroud were in depicting a crucifixion victim. Indeed, the marks on the body even matched weapons known to have been used by Roman soldiers.

He said, "How could an artist the Middle Ages known all of this? How could he have known so much about pathology that he could depict wounds so completely accurately that they could fool a modern pathologist? People just didn't know these things in the Middle Ages."

After that discussion, the more I read up on the shroud, the more amazed I became with things that just cannot be adequately explained. For example, just how does one "paint" a negative, given photography didn't exist back then? And why would you paint a negative any way? How could an artist paint a photo that includes detail which can only be seen through digital technology? And how does some medieval artist create a three-dimensional painting?

dbackjon wrote:I don't see anywhere in the report that science supports it.

A whole lot of "mays" "could be" and "possibles"

Dude, don't rain on the parade. You do understand the intended purpose of this thread, don't you?

JoltinJoe wrote:

dbackjon wrote:I don't see anywhere in the report that science supports it.

A whole lot of "mays" "could be" and "possibles"

Dude, don't rain on the parade. You do understand the intended purpose of this thread, don't you?

He's been too busy making Valentine Cards for his cats