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Humanity Is Becoming Increasingly Less Violent...
with One Exception - Religious Violence!

“Today we may be living in the most peaceful era in our species’ existence.”

"He acknowledges: “In a century that began with 9/11, Iraq, and Darfur, the claim that we are living in an unusually peaceful time may strike you as somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene.” Pinker points out, wars make headlines, but there are fewer conflicts today, and wars don’t kill as many people as they did in the Middle Ages, for instance. Also, global rates of violent crime have plummeted in the last few decades. Pinker notes that the reason for these advances are complex but certainly the rise of education, and a growing willingness to put ourselves in the shoes of others has played its part."




http://www.alternet.org/belief/humanity ... s-violence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overall we may be experiencing a period of lessened violence, but I don't think we have become innately less violent. If anything, I think we have more violence in our hearts and minds than we did in the Middle Ages. The difference is today more of us have much more to lose by acting on those violent impulses.

Give us a good ol fashioned loss of the power grid for a few months and what will happen will make the Middle Ages look like Victorian England.

The author sounds like one of those Wilsonian era "end of all wars" dreamers.

I also noticed that to keep his article from being totally finger pointing at the Muslims he had to throw the Sikh temple shooting in there. Because Christians shooting up churches and temples is so endemic, you know

Obama also did this.

CID1990 wrote:Overall we may be experiencing a period of lessened violence, but I don't think we have become innately less violent. If anything, I think we have more violence in our hearts and minds than we did in the Middle Ages. The difference is today more of us have much more to lose by acting on those violent impulses.

Give us a good ol fashioned loss of the power grid for a few months and what will happen will make the Middle Ages look like Victorian England.

The author sounds like one of those Wilsonian era "end of all wars" dreamers.

I also noticed that to keep his article from being totally finger pointing at the Muslims he had to throw the Sikh temple shooting in there. Because Christians shooting up churches and temples is so endemic, you know

I get the impression he's an annoyed atheists who is very specifically creating an argument against the old Christian theism observation that "Without God, we do not know right from wrong"

The whole God is Morality thing..
It feels like he's creating a specific argument against JUST THAT POINT

CID1990 wrote:Overall we may be experiencing a period of lessened violence, but I don't think we have become innately less violent. If anything, I think we have more violence in our hearts and minds..

We're certainly more immune to it and crave it. We went from Centipede and Space Invaders to GTA and COD. From Chips and Dragnet to SVU and Breaking Bad. The article also mentioned the Americas were not consistent with the findings, so hard to see his point in this country.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:Overall we may be experiencing a period of lessened violence, but I don't think we have become innately less violent. If anything, I think we have more violence in our hearts and minds than we did in the Middle Ages. The difference is today more of us have much more to lose by acting on those violent impulses.

Give us a good ol fashioned loss of the power grid for a few months and what will happen will make the Middle Ages look like Victorian England.

The author sounds like one of those Wilsonian era "end of all wars" dreamers.

I also noticed that to keep his article from being totally finger pointing at the Muslims he had to throw the Sikh temple shooting in there. Because Christians shooting up churches and temples is so endemic, you know

I get the impression he's an annoyed atheists who is very specifically creating an argument against the old Christian theism observation that "Without God, we do not know right from wrong"

The whole God is Morality thing..
It feels like he's creating a specific argument against JUST THAT POINT

I think religion does provide morality... whatever that might be- and there are many belief systems that could be considered "religion". I was raised Protestant, and although I'm not particularly religious (and lean atheist) I can't deny that I do have a Judeo-Christian sense of morality. Islamists have their own compass, as do others, and the humanist side of these moralities outweigh the destructive, IMO.

That's why I defend religion without being religious myself.

Democracy + plentiful food and potable water = not a lot of violence.

Also, I find it interesting how no one wants to acknowledge how wars between top militaries all but stopped after nuclear weapons came to be. No one is going to want to fight a war where everyone loses.

CID1990 wrote:Overall we may be experiencing a period of lessened violence, but I don't think we have become innately less violent. If anything, I think we have more violence in our hearts and minds than we did in the Middle Ages.

Give us a good ol fashioned loss of the power grid for a few months and what will happen will make the Middle Ages look like Victorian England.

Boy howdy.

CID1990 wrote:
I think religion does provide morality... whatever that might be- and there are many belief systems that could be considered "religion". I was raised Protestant, and although I'm not particularly religious (and lean atheist) I can't deny that I do have a Judeo-Christian sense of morality. Islamists have their own compass, as do others, and the humanist side of these moralities outweigh the destructive, IMO.

That's why I defend religion without being religious myself.

Wait... You think Religion "provides" morality?
Experiencing suffering and the ability to see others experience suffering "provides" morality?
Everything else (Religion) is just an attempt to control the outcome

Saying Religion provides Morality is like saying a comic book provides us our imagination...
A comic book is somebody else's imagination
and a Religion is somebody else's God Experience



If even you're confused about this we are doomed the bastards got us all... Jeeze

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
I think religion does provide morality... whatever that might be- and there are many belief systems that could be considered "religion". I was raised Protestant, and although I'm not particularly religious (and lean atheist) I can't deny that I do have a Judeo-Christian sense of morality. Islamists have their own compass, as do others, and the humanist side of these moralities outweigh the destructive, IMO.

That's why I defend religion without being religious myself.

Wait... You think Religion "provides" morality?
Experiencing suffering and the ability to see others experience suffering "provides" morality?
Everything else (Religion) is just an attempt to control the outcome

Saying Religion provides Morality is like saying a comic book provides us our imagination...
A comic book is somebody else's imagination
and a Religion is somebody else's God Experience



If even you're confused about this we are doomed the bastards got us all... Jeeze

Ok "provides" was just the word I had at hand. A better way to say it is that for the majority of people in the world, their moral blueprint is rooted in religion.

But that said, morality is also historically based on environment, and the morality-religion relationship becomes a chicken/ egg thing. That which hurts us, or makes it hard to bring in the crops or put skins around our shoulders (like killing the best farmer or hunter in the clan) is bad and therefore immoral. In fact, a lot of early religions were probably just a simple extension of this: God says don't kill the best hunter in the clan. I am sure someone has written something on this, I just haven't read it.

The problem I have with religion is that there is always some asshole who comes along and convinces people he can invoke this god, and then decides to make up a bunch of self serving crap this god also says to either reserve for himself the best food, the privilege of not toiling in the fields, securing the services of the choicest women...

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Wait... You think Religion "provides" morality?
Experiencing suffering and the ability to see others experience suffering "provides" morality?
Everything else (Religion) is just an attempt to control the outcome

Saying Religion provides Morality is like saying a comic book provides us our imagination...
A comic book is somebody else's imagination
and a Religion is somebody else's God Experience



If even you're confused about this we are doomed the bastards got us all... Jeeze

Ok "provides" was just the word I had at hand. A better way to say it is that for the majority of people in the world, their moral blueprint is rooted in religion.

But that said, morality is also historically based on environment, and the morality-religion relationship becomes a chicken/ egg thing. That which hurts us, or makes it hard to bring in the crops or put skins around our shoulders (like killing the best farmer or hunter in the clan) is bad and therefore immoral. In fact, a lot of early religions were probably just a simple extension of this: God says don't kill the best hunter in the clan. I am sure someone has written something on this, I just haven't read it.

The problem I have with religion is that there is always some asshole who comes along and convinces people he can invoke this god, and then decides to make up a bunch of self serving crap this god also says to either reserve for himself the best food, the privilege of not toiling in the fields, securing the services of the choicest women...

You mean like Warren Jeffs.

CID1990 wrote:
But that said, morality is also historically based on environment, and the morality-religion relationship becomes a chicken/ egg thing. That which hurts us, or makes it hard to bring in the crops or put skins around our shoulders (like killing the best farmer or hunter in the clan) is bad and therefore immoral. In fact, a lot of early religions were probably just a simple extension of this: God says don't kill the best hunter in the clan. I am sure someone has written something on this, I just haven't read it.

The problem I have with religion is that there is always some asshole who comes along and convinces people he can invoke this god, and then decides to make up a bunch of self serving crap this god also says to either reserve for himself the best food, the privilege of not toiling in the fields, securing the services of the choicest women...

Too apologetic ^ for my taste... but charming
When somebody says: Here is my experience - now live my experience - as I say you should
That IS the definition of EVIL

I liken it to murder
When ones state of existence is co-opted by external forces
programming people to live in fear and hate - and - stealing their lives and co-opting them for your own purpose is quite literally MURDER.

And were I the king of the world (note the parody there)
This would be the most significant crime of all - stealing a persons ability to think - buy jumping into their pre-adolescent mind and taking control for your own gain...

You see it vastly different than I do
somehow you think it's cute or nice
I see it as the Prime Evil - stealing lives and turning them into willing slaves before they can develop their own ability to think critically


I'm kinda not really kidding

To me this is another example of looking at religion in general instead of Islam in particular. Subtract violence in which Islam is a factor and see what happens. Then we'll talk.

Think about it. Think about how much of the violence in today's world would not exist if Islam did not exist.

Can you think of a significant violent conflict going on in the world right now in which Islam is not a factor? I'm sure there must be some but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Otherwise: I suppose morality is possible without religion. A moral system can exist. But there's no intrinsic basis for it. And sooner or later, in the absence of "something else," people will realize that.

JohnStOnge wrote:To me this is another example of looking at religion in general instead of Islam in particular. Subtract violence in which Islam is a factor and see what happens. Then we'll talk.

Think about it. Think about how much of the violence in today's world would not exist if Islam did not exist.

Can you think of a significant violent conflict going on in the world right now in which Islam is not a factor? I'm sure there must be some but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Mexican Drug war, North Korea, Ukrainian protests, the very Christian State of Texas death penalty, drone attacks on innocent Muslims.

Mexican Drug war, North Korea, Ukrainian protests, the very Christian State of Texas death penalty, drone attacks on innocent Muslims.

Very good; though I wouldn't say the Texas death penalty thing falls into the "violent conflict" category. Also I wouldn't say that there's much current "violent conflict" associated with Korea. Just a lot of repression.

But you know what I'm saying. Take the existence of Islam out as a factor and see how much violence in today's time you can come up with that's "caused" by religion.

It's not religion in general in today's world that's causing a lot of violence. It's Islam.

It's not Islam. It's middle easterners. They are biologically prone to violence.



(sarcasm)

A very odd analysis, considering that 100,000,000 lives were lost in the past 70 years at the hands of officially atheist states.

In fact, it was the political/moral vanquishing of these "secular" states that has resulted in a more stable world.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
But that said, morality is also historically based on environment, and the morality-religion relationship becomes a chicken/ egg thing. That which hurts us, or makes it hard to bring in the crops or put skins around our shoulders (like killing the best farmer or hunter in the clan) is bad and therefore immoral. In fact, a lot of early religions were probably just a simple extension of this: God says don't kill the best hunter in the clan. I am sure someone has written something on this, I just haven't read it.

The problem I have with religion is that there is always some asshole who comes along and convinces people he can invoke this god, and then decides to make up a bunch of self serving crap this god also says to either reserve for himself the best food, the privilege of not toiling in the fields, securing the services of the choicest women...

Too apologetic ^ for my taste... but charming
When somebody says: Here is my experience - now live my experience - as I say you should
That IS the definition of EVIL

I liken it to murder
When ones state of existence is co-opted by external forces
programming people to live in fear and hate - and - stealing their lives and co-opting them for your own purpose is quite literally MURDER.

And were I the king of the world (note the parody there)
This would be the most significant crime of all - stealing a persons ability to think - buy jumping into their pre-adolescent mind and taking control for your own gain...

You see it vastly different than I do
somehow you think it's cute or nice
I see it as the Prime Evil - stealing lives and turning them into willing slaves before they can develop their own ability to think critically


I'm kinda not really kidding

I'm not apologizing for religion. I think religion is as much of liability to society as it is a regulator.

Buried in what I said is the idea that large chunks of the ideology of most religions are man-made (or totally man-made, depending on how you look at it), and those ideologies are motivated by either self preservation (Thou shalt not kill- not me, nor the dude who I depend on for food), or selfishness (women have to cover their heads because some other dude might look at my woman and try to steal her). I don't think there's anything cute about it- I just tend to look at it in a clinical sense... especially since I dont really have a lot of skin in the game. But I essentially said what you did, without the JSO-esque absolutist rant about capital "E" EVIL.

BTW I liked this part: "When somebody says: Here is my experience - now live my experience - as I say you should
That IS the definition of EVIL "

I agree completely. reminds me of the progressive movement. Sort of a religion of its own?

People have increasingly unfettered access to information which makes it difficult for tyrants, popes, charlatans, czars and catholic child molesters to control people. According to the latest Pew Research Foundation study on religion, the fastest growing segment of the religious are those who claim no religion.

Societies that have embraced the virtues of critical ethical inquiry and the superiority of science, tolerance and freedom see little of the violence and mayhem that has plagued other parts of world.

It is no accident that the greatest of atrocities witnessed by man, throughout history, germinated in soil rich in religion where the populace, under threat of death or punishment, were forced to believe, conditioned to acquiesce to authority and sucumb to utopian schemes.

Adolf Hitler (a catholic) and the Third Reich - Protestant and Catholic Germany
Fascism - Catholic Italy
Stalinism - Russian Orthodox, personality cult and Communism
Czarist Russia - Russian Orthodox
China/North Korea - Personality cults, Communism, Buddhist abberations
The Brutality of the Middle/Dark Ages - Catholic-dominated Europe, Divine Right of Kings, Tyrant Popes
Middle East - Islam

The most violent places on earth are also the most religious and closed to free exchange of information.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Mexican Drug war, North Korea, Ukrainian protests, the very Christian State of Texas death penalty, drone attacks on innocent Muslims.

Very good; though I wouldn't say the Texas death penalty thing falls into the "violent conflict" category. Also I wouldn't say that there's much current "violent conflict" associated with Korea. Just a lot of repression.

But you know what I'm saying. Take the existence of Islam out as a factor and see how much violence in today's time you can come up with that's "caused" by religion.

It's not religion in general in today's world that's causing a lot of violence. It's Islam.

You're blinded by ignorance and hatred of other races.

The violence perpetrated by christianity is much more subtle but it's violence, serious violence.

The industrial rape and slaughter of children perpetrated and subsequently cover-up by the catholic church. Hundreds of thousands to millions of childrens have been raped by catholic priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons and lay employees of the church since the creation of the corporation. Matter of fact, last week the church was lambasted by United Nations for this.

Archaic catholic rules regarding marriage - divorce is not allowed by the church. May not seem like a big deal to an ignorant asshole like you, but this is huge. The church essentially, by threat of punishment, forces incompatible people to remain together in a toxic relationship. It's difficult to fathom the millions upon millions of women forced to stay in a marriage and brutalizied by violent catholic husbands and the millions of families and lives destroyed by marital strife over the centuries.

We all know you hate gay people, but there are tens of millions of gay people on the planet who are victims of bigotry perpetrated by christian fundamentalists and, of course, funded by the catholic church. The catholic church spends millions each year demeaning gay people under the guise of preserving the sanctity of marriage. Aint guns, aint suicide bombers, but this is violence.

Can go on, but you get the point. Wait, you never will.

D1B wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:
Very good; though I wouldn't say the Texas death penalty thing falls into the "violent conflict" category. Also I wouldn't say that there's much current "violent conflict" associated with Korea. Just a lot of repression.

But you know what I'm saying. Take the existence of Islam out as a factor and see how much violence in today's time you can come up with that's "caused" by religion.

It's not religion in general in today's world that's causing a lot of violence. It's Islam.

You're blinded by ignorance and hatred of other races.

The violence perpetrated by christianity is much more subtle but it's violence, serious violence.

The industrial rape and slaughter of children perpetrated and subsequently cover-up by the catholic church. Hundreds of thousands to millions of childrens have been raped by catholic priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons and lay employees of the church since the creation of the corporation. Matter of fact, last week the church was lambasted by United Nations for this.

Archaic catholic rules regarding marriage - divorce is not allowed by the church. May not seem like a big deal to an ignorant asshole like you, but this is huge. The church essentially, by threat of punishment, forces incompatible people to remain together in a toxic relationship. It's difficult to fathom the millions upon millions of women forced to stay in a marriage and brutalizied by violent catholic husbands and the millions of families and lives destroyed by marital strife over the centuries.

We all know you hate gay people, but there are tens of millions of gay people on the planet who are victims of bigotry perpetrated by christian fundamentalists and, of course, funded by the catholic church. The catholic church spends millions each year demeaning gay people under the guise of preserving the sanctity of marriage. Aint guns, aint suicide bombers, but this is violence.

Can go on, but you get the point. Wait, you never will.

I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church's stance on some things, gays being among those-

But in terms of the largest world religions, the Catholic Church is hardly the most grotesque in its treatment of gays.

D1B wrote:People have increasingly unfettered access to information which makes it difficult for tyrants, popes, charlatans, czars and catholic child molesters to control people. According to the latest Pew Research Foundation study on religion, the fastest growing segment of the religious are those who claim no religion.

Societies that have embraced the virtues of critical ethical inquiry and the superiority of science, tolerance and freedom see little of the violence and mayhem that has plagued other parts of world.

It is no accident that the greatest of atrocities witnessed by man, throughout history, germinated in soil rich in religion where the populace, under threat of death or punishment, were forced to believe, conditioned to acquiesce to authority and sucumb to utopian schemes.

Adolf Hitler (a catholic) and the Third Reich - Protestant and Catholic Germany
Fascism - Catholic Italy
Stalinism - Russian Orthodox, personality cult and Communism
Czarist Russia - Russian Orthodox
China/North Korea - Personality cults, Communism, Buddhist abberations
The Brutality of the Middle/Dark Ages - Catholic-dominated Europe, Divine Right of Kings, Tyrant Popes
Middle East - Islam

The most violent places on earth are also the most religious and closed to free exchange of information.

Clarification:
1. Hitler - Was an anti-Christian.
2. Fascism - Catholic Italy. Mussolini was an atheist.
3. Stalinism - Stalin was an atheist.
4. Czarist Russia - Not aware of fighting a war or repressing it's citizens in the name of a religion.
5. China / North Korea, again atheist.
6. Dark Ages - was a result of the vacuum created by the collapse of the Roman Empire.
7. Middle East - Yeah, Islam sucks balls.

Other than the Islamic jackwads, there hasn't been a war fought over or for religion since the 1600's.
If you're into splitting hairs, if there has been a war fought over a "religion" it was waged by a group who was being denied religious freedom by some governmental force.

Baldy wrote:

D1B wrote:People have increasingly unfettered access to information which makes it difficult for tyrants, popes, charlatans, czars and catholic child molesters to control people. According to the latest Pew Research Foundation study on religion, the fastest growing segment of the religious are those who claim no religion.

Societies that have embraced the virtues of critical ethical inquiry and the superiority of science, tolerance and freedom see little of the violence and mayhem that has plagued other parts of world.

It is no accident that the greatest of atrocities witnessed by man, throughout history, germinated in soil rich in religion where the populace, under threat of death or punishment, were forced to believe, conditioned to acquiesce to authority and sucumb to utopian schemes.

Adolf Hitler (a catholic) and the Third Reich - Protestant and Catholic Germany
Fascism - Catholic Italy
Stalinism - Russian Orthodox, personality cult and Communism
Czarist Russia - Russian Orthodox
China/North Korea - Personality cults, Communism, Buddhist abberations
The Brutality of the Middle/Dark Ages - Catholic-dominated Europe, Divine Right of Kings, Tyrant Popes
Middle East - Islam

The most violent places on earth are also the most religious and closed to free exchange of information.

Clarification:
1. Hitler - Was an anti-Christian.
2. Fascism - Catholic Italy. Mussolini was an atheist.
3. Stalinism - Stalin was an atheist.
4. Czarist Russia - Not aware of fighting a war or repressing it's citizens in the name of a religion.
5. China / North Korea, again atheist.
6. Dark Ages - was a result of the vacuum created by the collapse of the Roman Empire.
7. Middle East - Yeah, Islam sucks balls.

Other than the Islamic jackwads, there hasn't been a war fought over or for religion since the 1600's.
If you're into splitting hairs, if there has been a war fought over a "religion" it was waged by a group who was being denied religious freedom by some governmental force.

Boldlie, completely missing the point.

CID1990 wrote:

D1B wrote:
You're blinded by ignorance and hatred of other races.

The violence perpetrated by christianity is much more subtle but it's violence, serious violence.

The industrial rape and slaughter of children perpetrated and subsequently cover-up by the catholic church. Hundreds of thousands to millions of childrens have been raped by catholic priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons and lay employees of the church since the creation of the corporation. Matter of fact, last week the church was lambasted by United Nations for this.

Archaic catholic rules regarding marriage - divorce is not allowed by the church. May not seem like a big deal to an ignorant asshole like you, but this is huge. The church essentially, by threat of punishment, forces incompatible people to remain together in a toxic relationship. It's difficult to fathom the millions upon millions of women forced to stay in a marriage and brutalizied by violent catholic husbands and the millions of families and lives destroyed by marital strife over the centuries.

We all know you hate gay people, but there are tens of millions of gay people on the planet who are victims of bigotry perpetrated by christian fundamentalists and, of course, funded by the catholic church. The catholic church spends millions each year demeaning gay people under the guise of preserving the sanctity of marriage. Aint guns, aint suicide bombers, but this is violence.

Can go on, but you get the point. Wait, you never will.

I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church's stance on some things, gays being among those-

But in terms of the largest world religions, the Catholic Church is hardly the most grotesque in its treatment of gays.

Through their well-funded public relations and political influence campaigns they legitimize the bigotry. They say one thing but do another. It's very similar to their partnership with Adolf Hitler through the signing of the Concordat - they legitimized the Third Reich to the world.

Again, it's not loud violence. It's quiet, serepticious and exceedingly efficient in brutality.

Islam is the guy that tells you loudly to your face that you are an asshole. The catholic church the guy that tells you you're a great person, but secretly arranges a meeting with your boss and tells him you're an asshole and he wants their business, he better get rid of you.

Which one is worse?