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The closest known relative of the ancestors of limbed animals such as humans likely evolved the foundation for rear legs even before the move to land, researchers say. This ancestor may have even been able to walk underwater, they added.

These findings reveal that a key step in the evolution of hind limbs happened in fish, challenging previous theories that such appendages evolved only after the move to land.

Anyone who denies evolution either doesn't understand it or refuses to accept it for no logical reason.

I'm in the evolution camp, but starting threads solely to pick ideological fights is an asshole. Anyone who thinks they can change minds on a message board is an idiot.

Going global as V does here doesn't work. For every caricatured fire-breathing anti-science bigot out there, there is ALSO a well-educated scientist with rational, well-researched arguments against Evolution. The truly scientific folk out there at least listen to them. Message board bigots looking to pick a fight, however, often try to shut the other side up with violent rhetoric (not V) or caricature straw-man arguments (V), though....

SuperHornet wrote:Going global as V does here doesn't work. For every caricatured fire-breathing anti-science bigot out there, there is ALSO a well-educated scientist with rational, well-researched arguments against Evolution. The truly scientific folk out there at least listen to them. Message board bigots looking to pick a fight, however, often try to shut the other side up with violent rhetoric (not V) or caricature straw-man arguments (V), though....

SH, there are no well researched arguments against evolution. Only well constructed failed arguments. Seriously. All evidence points to evolution and the only people that deny it don't understand it.

CID1990 wrote:I'm in the evolution camp, but starting threads solely to pick ideological fights is an asshole. Anyone who thinks they can change minds on a message board is an idiot.

Grandpa. Stop smoking!!!!!!

SuperHornet wrote:Going global as V does here doesn't work. For every caricatured fire-breathing anti-science bigot out there, there is ALSO a well-educated scientist with rational, well-researched arguments against Evolution. The truly scientific folk out there at least listen to them. Message board bigots looking to pick a fight, however, often try to shut the other side up with violent rhetoric (not V) or caricature straw-man arguments (V), though....

You couldn't be more wrong any legitimate scientist understands that evolution is real

Or are you crackpots that have science degrees but they do not understand science or are so blinded by religion that they refused to accept it

Seriously only an idiot a moron or someone who was so blinded by being ritualist has been brainwashed thanks that evolution is not real

CID1990 wrote:I'm in the evolution camp, but starting threads solely to pick ideological fights is an asshole. Anyone who thinks they can change minds on a message board is an idiot.

Well. Thanks! Better post that exact same message on every single thread here. . . . So..what will there be to discuss if we don't post anything that someone else might disagree with? Most of the football conversation will be gone too.

What would be left? JBB's website?

grizzaholic wrote:

CID1990 wrote:I'm in the evolution camp, but starting threads solely to pick ideological fights is an asshole. Anyone who thinks they can change minds on a message board is an idiot.

Well. Thanks! Better post that exact same message on every single thread here. . . . So..what will there be to discuss if we don't post anything that someone else might disagree with? Most of the football conversation will be gone too.

What would be left? JBB's website?

You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

CID1990 wrote:

grizzaholic wrote:
Well. Thanks! Better post that exact same message on every single thread here. . . . So..what will there be to discuss if we don't post anything that someone else might disagree with? Most of the football conversation will be gone too.

What would be left? JBB's website?

You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

This ^ has me fascinated...

Why so defensive of your bible belt brothers / should we not stand in the very face of ignorance
and speak the plain and simple truth..?

What about the Islamic knuckleheads
With similar retarded world views and their dark ages social order perspective..?
should we all tip-toe around that silliness too?

Discussions of regular common sense should never be walked away from
Even the Catholic Church does not dismiss Evolution so easily as our Homeland Bible Belt Retards

Their ours (they are fellow Americans) The Beacon of Light
We can't give up on them no matter how hard they try and claw their way back into the dark ages

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

This ^ has me fascinated...

Why so defensive of your bible belt brothers / should we not stand in the very face of ignorance
and speak the plain and simple truth..?

What about the Islamic knuckleheads
With similar retarded world views and their dark ages social order perspective..?
should we all tip-toe around that silliness too?

Discussions of regular common sense should never be walked away from
Even the Catholic Church does not dismiss Evolution so easily as our Homeland Bible Belt Retards

Their ours (they are fellow Americans) The Beacon of Light
We can't give up on them no matter how hard they try and claw their way back into the dark ages

And what you say in response to that in turn interests me. It seems that a stubborn unwillingness to look at objective information and emprical facts is for some reason especially bad when it ostensibly stems from religious beliefs. Not vaccinating your kids because "big pharma owns the FDA and doesn't want to lose profits from toxic vaccines" is somehow less dangerous, even though it can have far worse consequences than being a young-Earth creationist. The idea that public beliefs on evolution will affect global economic competitiveness is also pure crap for reasons I've already gone over here. Pure and simple, there is a special bias against any form of creationism with some people because those are associated with religious belief.

Pwns wrote:

Chizzang wrote:


This ^ has me fascinated...

Why so defensive of your bible belt brothers / should we not stand in the very face of ignorance
and speak the plain and simple truth..?

What about the Islamic knuckleheads
With similar retarded world views and their dark ages social order perspective..?
should we all tip-toe around that silliness too?

Discussions of regular common sense should never be walked away from
Even the Catholic Church does not dismiss Evolution so easily as our Homeland Bible Belt Retards

Their ours (they are fellow Americans) The Beacon of Light
We can't give up on them no matter how hard they try and claw their way back into the dark ages

And what you say in response to that in turn interests me. It seems that a stubborn unwillingness to look at objective information and emprical facts is for some reason especially bad when it ostensibly stems from religious beliefs. Not vaccinating your kids because "big pharma owns the FDA and doesn't want to lose profits from toxic vaccines" is somehow less dangerous, even though it can have far worse consequences than being a young-Earth creationist. The idea that public beliefs on evolution will affect global economic competitiveness is also pure crap for reasons I've already gone over here. Pure and simple, there is a special bias against any form of creationism with some people because those are associated with religious belief.

I'm not sure what you're talking about actually...
Not vaccinating your kids is a level of ignorance and stupidity I'm not comfortable with either
It's based on Urban Legend - it's like altering your camping habits because of Big Foot

So make a real point...
Ignorance and stupidity should be addressed face on (period)
Like Sam Harris jokes about: People who Believe Elvis is alive pay a price for their stupidity
and society does not hold back - why should other forms of blatant stupidity be honored ???

Pwns wrote:

Chizzang wrote:


This ^ has me fascinated...

Why so defensive of your bible belt brothers / should we not stand in the very face of ignorance
and speak the plain and simple truth..?

What about the Islamic knuckleheads
With similar retarded world views and their dark ages social order perspective..?
should we all tip-toe around that silliness too?

Discussions of regular common sense should never be walked away from
Even the Catholic Church does not dismiss Evolution so easily as our Homeland Bible Belt Retards

Their ours (they are fellow Americans) The Beacon of Light
We can't give up on them no matter how hard they try and claw their way back into the dark ages

And what you say in response to that in turn interests me. It seems that a stubborn unwillingness to look at objective information and emprical facts is for some reason especially bad when it ostensibly stems from religious beliefs. Not vaccinating your kids because "big pharma owns the FDA and doesn't want to lose profits from toxic vaccines" is somehow less dangerous, even though it can have far worse consequences than being a young-Earth creationist. The idea that public beliefs on evolution will affect global economic competitiveness is also pure crap for reasons I've already gone over here. Pure and simple, there is a special bias against any form of creationism with some people because those are associated with religious belief.

There's a bias against creationsim because it's fucking retarded. End of story.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

This ^ has me fascinated...

Why so defensive of your bible belt brothers / should we not stand in the very face of ignorance
and speak the plain and simple truth..?

What about the Islamic knuckleheads
With similar retarded world views and their dark ages social order perspective..?
should we all tip-toe around that silliness too?

Discussions of regular common sense should never be walked away from
Even the Catholic Church does not dismiss Evolution so easily as our Homeland Bible Belt Retards

Their ours (they are fellow Americans) The Beacon of Light
We can't give up on them no matter how hard they try and claw their way back into the dark ages

For me it's real simple.

I don't have a problem with honestly held religious belief unless it somehow infringes on me or anyone else. People have the right to be as ignorant as they want to be.

So drawing a distinction between the fundamentalist Islamic belief that I must eventually convert to Islam or else pay a head tax or die (that might be an infringement on me)... and the Christian belief that the amorphous bearded dude floating on a cloud decided to play sandbox and created the universe (that probably doesnt constitute an infringement on me... I'll get back to you if someone offers to kick my ass if I don't start believing woman was created from the rib bone of the first man)... that is very simple to me.

I have no problem with the peaceful practice of religion. I also sympathise with people who have religious faith- from all religions, and I take issue with people who denigrate them or target them for ridicule based solely on that faith, whether it affects the person doing the ridiculing or not. There are people in China who ridicule Tibetan Buddhists solely for their faith, and yet these people hurt nobody. And it is the same thing.

Right now, you can pretty much say or publish the most vile things you can think of about Christians and get away with it (just look at the recent op-ed in US News about Justice Kagan's stay on an abortion case).. it's like the Know Nothings are back in vogue, except they aren't just on to Catholics anymore.

So I think people who pick on Christians for religious beliefs that have absolutely no harmful effects on others are assholes. And don't try that "they are taking us back to the dark ages" petard, because you know darn well that creationist Christians might be annoying at times, they are nowhere near capable of stifling scientific discovery. They were much more powerful in the days of Galileo and Copernicus and science still won and there's no going back. Plus, Christians have a much more built in regulatory body than religions like Islam or Hinduism. You'll see Christians coming down on the really hardcore Christians for being assholes. You don't see that much in the Muslim world.

I get irked because I think making it "OK" to poke fun at one religious sect or another is a MUCH more slippery slope than any changes those people might bring to our society. In our own society in particular, we are moving away from fundamental Christianity, not towards it. There is no societal danger posed to us by them. But what I find much more plausible is that we are creating an atmosphere where one day... not in our lifetimes, but definitely measurable in decades or a century.. where we move from simple ridicule to actual persecution. It has happened many times in history in all different kinds of societies, and this is how it begins- with 'harmless' ridicule.

So yeah, it adds pee to my Cheerios sometimes.

CID1990 wrote: For me it's real simple.

I don't have a problem with honestly held religious belief unless it somehow infringes on me or anyone else. People have the right to be as ignorant as they want to be.

So drawing a distinction between the fundamentalist Islamic belief that I must eventually convert to Islam or else pay a head tax or die (that might be an infringement on me)... and the Christian belief that the amorphous bearded dude floating on a cloud decided to play sandbox and created the universe (that probably doesnt constitute an infringement on me... I'll get back to you if someone offers to kick my ass if I don't start believing woman was created from the rib bone of the first man)... that is very simple to me.

I have no problem with the peaceful practice of religion. I also sympathise with people who have religious faith- from all religions, and I take issue with people who denigrate them or target them for ridicule based solely on that faith, whether it affects the person doing the ridiculing or not. There are people in China who ridicule Tibetan Buddhists solely for their faith, and yet these people hurt nobody. And it is the same thing.

Right now, you can pretty much say or publish the most vile things you can think of about Christians and get away with it (just look at the recent op-ed in US News about Justice Kagan's stay on an abortion case).. it's like the Know Nothings are back in vogue, except they aren't just on to Catholics anymore.

So I think people who pick on Christians for religious beliefs that have absolutely no harmful effects on others are assholes. And don't try that "they are taking us back to the dark ages" petard, because you know darn well that creationist Christians might be annoying at times, they are nowhere near capable of stifling scientific discovery. They were much more powerful in the days of Galileo and Copernicus and science still won and there's no going back. Plus, Christians have a much more built in regulatory body than religions like Islam or Hinduism. You'll see Christians coming down on the really hardcore Christians for being assholes. You don't see that much in the Muslim world.

I get irked because I think making it "OK" to poke fun at one religious sect or another is a MUCH more slippery slope than any changes those people might bring to our society. In our own society in particular, we are moving away from fundamental Christianity, not towards it. There is no societal danger posed to us by them. But what I find much more plausible is that we are creating an atmosphere where one day... not in our lifetimes, but definitely measurable in decades or a century.. where we move from simple ridicule to actual persecution. It has happened many times in history in all different kinds of societies, and this is how it begins- with 'harmless' ridicule.

So yeah, it adds pee to my Cheerios sometimes.

I like that ^
A well said and strongly crafted response

BUT:
You make this format (this forum here) out to be the real world and it isn't
If Christians don't like it here - they are free to leave - and suffer no emotional trauma

So
In this environment (an Internet Forum) we battle to the death (metaphorically speaking)
and nobody gets a free pass - they simply get to leave
And go lick their wounds or kiss their snakes or whatever they do in congress with baby jesus


thanks for playing - you lose

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote: For me it's real simple.

I don't have a problem with honestly held religious belief unless it somehow infringes on me or anyone else. People have the right to be as ignorant as they want to be.

So drawing a distinction between the fundamentalist Islamic belief that I must eventually convert to Islam or else pay a head tax or die (that might be an infringement on me)... and the Christian belief that the amorphous bearded dude floating on a cloud decided to play sandbox and created the universe (that probably doesnt constitute an infringement on me... I'll get back to you if someone offers to kick my ass if I don't start believing woman was created from the rib bone of the first man)... that is very simple to me.

I have no problem with the peaceful practice of religion. I also sympathise with people who have religious faith- from all religions, and I take issue with people who denigrate them or target them for ridicule based solely on that faith, whether it affects the person doing the ridiculing or not. There are people in China who ridicule Tibetan Buddhists solely for their faith, and yet these people hurt nobody. And it is the same thing.

Right now, you can pretty much say or publish the most vile things you can think of about Christians and get away with it (just look at the recent op-ed in US News about Justice Kagan's stay on an abortion case).. it's like the Know Nothings are back in vogue, except they aren't just on to Catholics anymore.

So I think people who pick on Christians for religious beliefs that have absolutely no harmful effects on others are assholes. And don't try that "they are taking us back to the dark ages" petard, because you know darn well that creationist Christians might be annoying at times, they are nowhere near capable of stifling scientific discovery. They were much more powerful in the days of Galileo and Copernicus and science still won and there's no going back. Plus, Christians have a much more built in regulatory body than religions like Islam or Hinduism. You'll see Christians coming down on the really hardcore Christians for being assholes. You don't see that much in the Muslim world.

I get irked because I think making it "OK" to poke fun at one religious sect or another is a MUCH more slippery slope than any changes those people might bring to our society. In our own society in particular, we are moving away from fundamental Christianity, not towards it. There is no societal danger posed to us by them. But what I find much more plausible is that we are creating an atmosphere where one day... not in our lifetimes, but definitely measurable in decades or a century.. where we move from simple ridicule to actual persecution. It has happened many times in history in all different kinds of societies, and this is how it begins- with 'harmless' ridicule.

So yeah, it adds pee to my Cheerios sometimes.

I like that ^
A well said and strongly crafted response

BUT:
You make this format (this forum here) out to be the real world and it isn't
If Christians don't like it here - they are free to leave - and suffer no emotional trauma

So
In this environment (an Internet Forum) we battle to the death (metaphorically speaking)
and nobody gets a free pass - they simply get to leave
And go lick their wounds or kiss their snakes or whatever they do in congress with baby jesus


thanks for playing - you lose

Right!

Which brings us back to me simply calling people asshole. Fair enough?

. edit

CID1990 wrote:


Right!

Which brings us back to me simply calling people asshole. Fair enough?

Why is it that YOU make me so happy..?
Long ago I used to have these feeling about AZ - then - he lost his vision (and humor)
You've filled some big shoes CID
and I thank you

CID1990 wrote:

grizzaholic wrote:
Well. Thanks! Better post that exact same message on every single thread here. . . . So..what will there be to discuss if we don't post anything that someone else might disagree with? Most of the football conversation will be gone too.

What would be left? JBB's website?

You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

I have never met a person in church that does not believe in evolution. Anyone that believes that if a person is religious they can't believe in evolution, is very naive.

Gil Dobie wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
You dickheads would think of something. Check with Cap'n he can give you some pointers.

Religious views on evolution are not a threat to anyone, so who the hell cares?

I have never met a person in church that does not believe in evolution. Anyone that believes that if a person is religious they can't believe in evolution, is very naive.

True Indeed,
The Catholic Church agrees with you
Its only the Fundamentalists who call regular old logic and reason the devils work