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...and not Christianity.

Discuss.

3. “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793


31. “Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”
~Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04 ... will-hate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't read these quotes the same way that you do. Paine actually concedes that religion is "benign" if there is no established church. And good ol' GW just says that, in America, religion is not a qualification for office-holding or a basis for special or invidious legal treatment.

Ivytalk wrote:I don't read these quotes the same way that you do. Paine actually concedes that religion is "benign" if there is no established church. And good ol' GW just says that, in America, religion is not a qualification for office-holding or a basis for special or invidious legal treatment.

All I've said is that America was founded on reason and not christianity.

Ivytalk wrote:I don't read these quotes the same way that you do. Paine actually concedes that religion is "benign" if there is no established church. And good ol' GW just says that, in America, religion is not a qualification for office-holding or a basis for special or invidious legal treatment.

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition."

This statement has bigger connotations than the beliefs of publicly elected officials, and you know it.

Many of the men who founded this country were enlightened men. They believed in reason over magic. They were Deists.

Ivytalk wrote:I don't read these quotes the same way that you do. Paine actually concedes that religion is "benign" if there is no established church. And good ol' GW just says that, in America, religion is not a qualification for office-holding or a basis for special or invidious legal treatment.

That's not the point. Paine, like Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin and possibly even Washington were Deists. These were religious men and had morals steeped in religion but they didn't fight for and create a theocracy.

Organized Religion... works a bit like an IQ test

Grizalltheway wrote:

Ivytalk wrote:I don't read these quotes the same way that you do. Paine actually concedes that religion is "benign" if there is no established church. And good ol' GW just says that, in America, religion is not a qualification for office-holding or a basis for special or invidious legal treatment.

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition."

This statement has bigger connotations than the beliefs of publicly elected officials, and you know it.

Nice way to take part of the quote out of context, Skippy. Read it again.

Ivytalk wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:
“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition."

This statement has bigger connotations than the beliefs of publicly elected officials, and you know it.

Nice way to take part of the quote out of context, Skippy. Read it again.

It was a general statement that led to a specific example of 'reason and truth' triumphing over religion and/or superstitous beliefs. Nice cherrypicking.

I have a hard time picturing Thomas Jefferson or George Washington getting riled up about gays being medical proxies for their partners.

I also have a hard time seeing them caring if kids at crappy schools get vouchers to go to a school where there might be organized prayer.

All I've said is that America was founded on reason and not christianity.

It was founded in large part of the basis of the premise that all "men" are endowed by their "Creator" with unalienable rights. And that was in the context of a Christian world view.

To think that there is no association between Christianity and the ideas woven into the founding of this country is being in complete denial.

BTW, reason in the absence of the premise that there is something greater and out side of us that sets the rules cannot justify the ideas that "all men are created equal" or that they have "unalienable rights." It cannot justify the idea of "morality" or intrinsic "right" or "wrong" at all.

No way. No how.

JohnStOnge wrote:

All I've said is that America was founded on reason and not christianity.

It was founded in large part of the basis of the premise that all "men" are endowed by their "Creator" with unalienable rights. And that was in the context of a Christian world view.


To think that there is no association between Christianity and the ideas woven into the founding of this country is being in complete denial.

That sounds great, but it's complete bullshit, otherwise there wouldn't have been slavery. It sounds good to say that shit, but clearly it isn't true.

Of course, I note that you put men in quotations. If by "men" you mean white male landowners you might be a little closer tot the truth. But that isn't a Christian World view. Either way, you are wrong.

In general, the founders were very religious. However, most weren't what we would call Evangelicals, but many of them were inspired by Evangelicals such as George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, John and Charles Wesley, etc.

[/thread]

JohnStOnge wrote:

All I've said is that America was founded on reason and not christianity.

It was founded in large part of the basis of the premise that all "men" are endowed by their "Creator" with unalienable rights. And that was in the context of a Christian world view.

To think that there is no association between Christianity and the ideas woven into the founding of this country is being in complete denial.

Nobody has said that our founding fathers were not Christians. Nobody is saying that those ideals and morals didn't play a role in their life. We're simply saying, given the facts, that we were not founded to be a Christian country. We were founded to be secular. Hell, John Adams even states this. If you want to argue with one of our founders, then be obtuse and do so.

Baldy wrote:In general, the founders were very religious. However, most weren't what we would call Evangelicals, but many of them were inspired by Evangelicals such as George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, John and Charles Wesley, etc.

[/thread]

I wouldn't go that far. The main founders and drafters of our documents were enlightened men and Deists.

JohnStOnge wrote:BTW, reason in the absence of the premise that there is something greater and out side of us that sets the rules cannot justify the ideas that "all men are created equal" or that they have "unalienable rights." It cannot justify the idea of "morality" or intrinsic "right" or "wrong" at all.

No way. No how.

Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

Ibanez wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:BTW, reason in the absence of the premise that there is something greater and out side of us that sets the rules cannot justify the ideas that "all men are created equal" or that they have "unalienable rights." It cannot justify the idea of "morality" or intrinsic "right" or "wrong" at all.

No way. No how.

Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

You can be spiritual, religious, and moral without being Christian. You can be Christian and still share common ideals of justice and liberty with non-Christians. You can be Christian and still understand the need for a secular government that exists outside the bounds of church influence.

The US was the one of, if not the first nation to be founded on an idea. It was not founded on Christianity.

Ibanez wrote:

Baldy wrote:In general, the founders were very religious. However, most weren't what we would call Evangelicals, but many of them were inspired by Evangelicals such as George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, John and Charles Wesley, etc.

[/thread]

I wouldn't go that far. The main founders and drafters of our documents were enlightened men and Deists.

Madison and Paine probably, but that's all.

I don't think anything you wrote in response to my post contradicts what I wrote. At some point during the exercise of logic there has to be a premise that's accepted. One premise expressed in our Declaration of Independence is that there is a "Creator" that endows us with rights. That's where the rights come from.

We've been round and round on the topic in many threads but if you remove that premise...or more generally the premise that there is something outside of ourselves that says we have rights...and reason can't bring you to the conclusion that people innately have rights.

Otherwise I think there is some dispute over the things you say about what Jefferson, Hamilton, and Adams believed. I used to just assume that they were essentially Deists because I heard it so often. But when I started looking into it I found that that's not known. Like if you look at the discussion of Jefferson's religion on the Monticello site (http://www.monticello.org/site/research ... us-beliefs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) it says he was influenced by Deists. But it does not say that's what he was. And it says:

Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ...

Score one for those who say he wasn't a Christian. But belief in a Supreme Being who is the "sustainer" of the universe doesn't exactly sound like belief in one that set the universe in motion then stepped out of any role of influence either. And in any case he did appeal to that concept of the "Creator" he believed in to establish the premise that all men have unalienable rights.

Ibanez wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:BTW, reason in the absence of the premise that there is something greater and out side of us that sets the rules cannot justify the ideas that "all men are created equal" or that they have "unalienable rights." It cannot justify the idea of "morality" or intrinsic "right" or "wrong" at all.

No way. No how.

Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

JohnStOnge wrote:I don't think anything you wrote in response to my post contradicts what I wrote. At some point during the exercise of logic there has to be a premise that's accepted. One premise expressed in our Declaration of Independence is that there is a "Creator" that endows us with rights. That's where the rights come from.

We've been round and round on the topic in many threads but if you remove that premise...or more generally the premise that there is something outside of ourselves that says we have rights...and reason can't bring you to the conclusion that people innately have rights.

Otherwise I think there is some dispute over the things you say about what Jefferson, Hamilton, and Adams believed. I used to just assume that they were essentially Deists because I heard it so often. But when I started looking into it I found that that's not known. Like if you look at the discussion of Jefferson's religion on the Monticello site (http://www.monticello.org/site/research ... us-beliefs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) it says he was influenced by Deists. But it does not say that's what he was. And it says:

Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ...

Score one for those who say he wasn't a Christian. But belief in a Supreme Being who is the "sustainer" of the universe doesn't exactly sound like belief in one that set the universe in motion then stepped out of any role of influence either. And in any case he did appeal to that concept of the "Creator" he believed in to establish the premise that all men have unalienable rights.

Ibanez wrote:
Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

Do you think religion and reason don't jive? Jefferson coined the phrase "Natures God" and crafted the "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". He was fascinated with religion and reason and was a deist who appreciated the ideas of Jesus.

America was not founded on Christianity.

You continuing to repeat that doesn't automatically make it true, klammy.

Ibanez wrote:
Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

Really?

Your logic and your reason is based on your perceptions, which are in turn perceived through your five senses. Your reason and logic are limited, therefore, by that part of reality you perceive and that part of reality you can sense.

We know probably less than 1% of the objective scientific truths which exist in our universe (or multi-verses, if that makes you happy). There are innumerable aspects of reality which we do not tangibly know or experience. Quantum physics now postulates the existence of dimensions which humans cannot perceive; metaphysics has made that claim for centuries.

Perhaps the incarnation represents a moment when the dimensions we perceive intersected (for lack of a better word) with a dimension we do not ordinarily perceive? Perhaps that explains why, at that moment, a group of angels perceived a heavenly host of angels announcing the news and extending God's blessing?

I'm not asking you to believe any of this, just to acknowledge that our abilities to reason and employ logic is limited by what we can know and perceive.

For my money, I long ago concluded that you cannot close the issue of religious truth and "miracles" by declaring them "unreasonable" or "illogical." Indeed, it seems unreasonable and illogical to do so, given we must reasonably and logically conclude we have only the most finite means of reason and logic. In addition to reason, fueled by our perception and senses, man is also a creature of intuition, and I ask where does that come from? What fuels that?

Moreover, even in our time, there are far too many incidents of "miraculous" events to dismiss all as the product of the insane or the unlearned. Perhaps a miracle is an ordinary event, but only explainable through knowledge of a fact which is revealed in an imperceptible dimension -- and thus seems "miraculous" to us?

The STUPID on this thread is reaching hilarious levels...



All one need do is read Thomas Jefferson
(actually read the voluminous tombs in print)
The man spoke very clearly and about all kinds of things...

But: Why we would expect a bunch of Christians to read Jefferson?
They don't even read their own biblical history before they spew quotes and parables
why would we expect them to read Jefferson before attributing a bunch of nonsense to him

Typical...



And one more thing - when somebody says "God" or "The creator" that does not automatically mean Jesus and the whole sh!t pot train wreck that goes along with that...

It sometimes just means GOD
The UNKNOWN
UN knowable - force

can you grasp that..?

JoltinJoe wrote:

Ibanez wrote:
Wrong again. Reason is the ability to apply logic. Applying logic, there is no way a virgin could have given birth; there is no way a man could have walked on water; there is no way a man could have died, spent days in hell, rose from the grave, spent 40 days walking the earth and then ascend into the clouds. People like Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson believed there was a creator, however he had no involvement in the world. These men had beliefs and a belief in a supreme being, that was out of this world, but they didn't believe all the magic and unnatural events of the bible.

Really?

Your logic and your reason is based on your perceptions, which are in turn perceived through your five senses. Your reason and logic are limited, therefore, by that part of reality you perceive and that part of reality you can sense.

We know probably less than 1% of the objective scientific truths which exist in our universe (or multi-verses, if that makes you happy). There are innumerable aspects of reality which we do not tangibly know or experience. Quantum physics now postulates the existence of dimensions which humans cannot perceive; metaphysics has made that claim for centuries.

Perhaps the incarnation represents a moment when the dimensions we perceive intersected (for lack of a better word) with a dimension we do not ordinarily perceive? Perhaps that explains why, at that moment, a group of angels perceived a heavenly host of angels announcing the news and extending God's blessing?

I'm not asking you to believe any of this, just to acknowledge that our abilities to reason and employ logic is limited by what we can know and perceive.

For my money, I long ago concluded that you cannot close the issue of religious truth and "miracles" by declaring them "unreasonable" or "illogical." Indeed, it seems unreasonable and illogical to do so, given we must reasonably and logically conclude we have only the most finite means of reason and logic. In addition to reason, fueled by our perception and senses, man is also a creature of intuition, and I ask where does that come from? What fuels that?

Moreover, even in our time, there are far too many incidents of "miraculous" events to dismiss all as the product of the insane or the unlearned. Perhaps a miracle is an ordinary event, but only explainable through knowledge of a fact which is revealed in an imperceptible dimension -- and thus seems "miraculous" to us?

If pure virgins gave birth more often, or if lepers were suddenly healed, or if dead men suddenly woke up and then rose into the heavens in front of people, I might believe. But common sense tells me that isn't possible.