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I figured it apropos to post an op-ed piece from a genuine lefty today. Hightower has been destroying conk mythology for decades.

Happy Labor Day!

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital," Abe declared in his first state of the union address. "Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

http://www.alternet.org/labor/where-lab ... its-headed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(now excuse me while I go off to work and crack the whip on my low-wage employees )

Populist nonsense. And what Lincoln said doesn't change that. That was just playing to populist sentiment.

If labor is worth a lot people will pay a lot. The reason people don't pay much for, say, working in a fast food place is that the labor is not worth a lot. There's a very large supply of people who can do the work. And the labor involved in a fast food business did not precede the capital or the concept.

Take McDonalds. A couple of guys decided to open a restaurant in 1940. That made some jobs available. The jobs did not create the business. The business created the jobs. In 1948 they morphed into a hamburger place. In 1954 they started thinking about a national franchised operation. In 1955 they opened their second restaurant. In 1959 they opened their 100th restaurant. And so on.

None of that happened because of labor. To say it happened because of labor is like saying it happened because of cows because cows are where hamburger meat comes from. It's something the business purchases in order to supply itself with what it needs. It happened because of the ideas of the two men and their willingness to invest and take risks. The opportunity for others to earn money by selling their labor to the business was created by those things. That stuff about labor being the origin of everything is nonsense.

Its true worth is established by supply and demand along with how much people are willing to pay for it and how much people are willing to sell it for. If McDonald's said it's going to pay 1 cent per hour nobody would work for them. So they have to pay more. But at some point they reach a level at which people will selll themthe labor they're looking for at that price. And that price is what the labor is worth.

If person wants to be paid more than they're paid for working at McDonald's they need to acquire skills for doing things that are WORTH more. Become a registered nurse, for instance, and you will have no problem finding a job at a very good salary. Minimum and "living" wage considerations won't be an issue. And the reason will be that you will have skills that are in demand.

As with any commodity, labor is paid what it is worth...

If you have an oz. of steel and an oz. of gold, are they going to fetch the same price on the open market???

If you have a surgeon and an economist and a fast food worker...they will each fetch what the market will bear for their talent and ability...

And one needs capital first before you can pay any worker...so we have a classic "chicken or egg" question...where did the capital come from...

Circular argument, if I ever saw one...

Happy Labor Day...

Col Hogan wrote:As with any commodity, labor is paid what it is worth...

If you have an oz. of steel and an oz. of gold, are they going to fetch the same price on the open market???

If you have a surgeon and an economist and a fast food worker...they will each fetch what the market will bear for their talent and ability...

And one needs capital first before you can pay any worker...so we have a classic "chicken or egg" question...where did the capital come from...

Circular argument, if I ever saw one...

Happy Labor Day...

Chicken and the egg is nonsense. If you are religious and believe God created all the animals, then the chicken came first. God didn't create eggs and sperm. He created man, woman, and animals.

Col Hogan wrote:As with any commodity, labor is paid what it is worth...

If you have an oz. of steel and an oz. of gold, are they going to fetch the same price on the open market???

If you have a surgeon and an economist and a fast food worker...they will each fetch what the market will bear for their talent and ability...

And one needs capital first before you can pay any worker...so we have a classic "chicken or egg" question...where did the capital come from...

Circular argument, if I ever saw one...

Happy Labor Day...

Meh... That's not entirely applicable in a world where Hedge Fund Managers live
in a world where Board members & CEO's write their own salary / I've sat quietly and watched it happen
At some point that system breaks from false entitlement, deceit and greed

Everybody at the top is more than willing to apply regular old supply and demand principals to the bottom 1/3rd of society and it's work force /Yet are shocked and offended when they are asked why they get paid
1,500 x more / and the only accurate answer is greed and self importance

Finding a way to appropriately honor the work force (the bottom 1/3rd) is similar to a being with self awareness / owning the ability to apply introspection and empathy with some dignity goes a LONG WAY

When a society is prepared to completely remove those from the equation (dignity and honor)
and moves forward applying one set of rules to the bottom and another set of rules to the top

Good luck

It's always going to happen to some degree
but proceed with caution

I had forgotten this, but Hightower was defeated for re-election as TX Agricultural Commissioner by none other than... Drum roll please ... Rick Perry.

Chizzang wrote:Meh... That's not entirely applicable in a world where Hedge Fund Managers live
in a world where Board members & CEO's write their own salary / I've sat quietly and watched it happen
At some point that system breaks from false entitlement, deceit and greed

Everybody at the top is more than willing to apply regular old supply and demand principals to the bottom 1/3rd of society and it's work force /Yet are shocked and offended when they are asked why they get paid
1,500 x more / and the only accurate answer is greed and self importance

Finding a way to appropriately honor the work force (the bottom 1/3rd) is similar to a being with self awareness / owning the ability to apply introspection and empathy with some dignity goes a LONG WAY

When a society is prepared to completely remove those from the equation (dignity and honor)
and moves forward applying one set of rules to the bottom and another set of rules to the top

Good luck

It's always going to happen to some degree
but proceed with caution

Yet the endless conflict with Communism exists with the assured establishment of an ELITE party class which inevitably controls (hordes) the wealth and power. Even if a hypothetically "pure" form of communism developed, the result is a society where dreams are extinguished; hard workers are not rewarded; development becomes a faint theoretical notion; and quality of life ultimately diminishes.

At least in a capitalist society, there exists a percentage of mentally ill folks who can swiftly "resolve" disproportional pay situations.

travelinman67 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:Meh... That's not entirely applicable in a world where Hedge Fund Managers live
in a world where Board members & CEO's write their own salary / I've sat quietly and watched it happen
At some point that system breaks from false entitlement, deceit and greed

Everybody at the top is more than willing to apply regular old supply and demand principals to the bottom 1/3rd of society and it's work force /Yet are shocked and offended when they are asked why they get paid
1,500 x more / and the only accurate answer is greed and self importance

Finding a way to appropriately honor the work force (the bottom 1/3rd) is similar to a being with self awareness / owning the ability to apply introspection and empathy with some dignity goes a LONG WAY

When a society is prepared to completely remove those from the equation (dignity and honor)
and moves forward applying one set of rules to the bottom and another set of rules to the top

Good luck

It's always going to happen to some degree
but proceed with caution

Yet the endless conflict with Communism exists with the assured establishment of an ELITE party class which inevitably controls (hordes) the wealth and power. Even if a hypothetically "pure" form of communism developed, the result is a society where dreams are extinguished; hard workers are not rewarded; development becomes a faint theoretical notion; and quality of life ultimately diminishes.

At least in a capitalist society, there exists a percentage of mentally ill folks who can swiftly "resolve" disproportional pay situations.

F*ck Communism...
It's a fools paradise and theoretical only
I'm talking about regular old common sense (now regarded as a super power)

A huge part of self preservation is seeing when enough is enough
and understanding that the present state of power is an illusion
sustained only by the thinnest of margins
Delicately separating 150 million people with nothing to lose from the 400 that own 52%

Chizzang wrote:A huge part of self preservation is seeing when enough is enough
and understanding that the present state of power is an illusion
sustained only by the thinnest of margins
Delicately separating 150 million people with nothing to lose from the 400 that own 52%

For the ultra wealthy, there is little to worry about. We all know the stories about elephants that are chained and trained while young. You can remove the chain when the elephant is older and the elephant will have conditioned himself to still believe he is restricted.

TV and our poor education system is the chain around most people's minds. People, in general, are nothing more than trained elephants who believe their potential is limited. Sure, you might have the one elephant that rampages and does some damage, but the rest will quietly blither along in compliance with their puny masters.

Look at Egypt. The people rebelled, the vast majority of people were peachy keen on getting rid of military rule and a dictator, and they, instead, got a democratically elected President who wanted to screw minorities, wealthy people, and any sane person. So the minority, with the support of some outsiders, had the military toss out the democratically elected whack job and protect them from the majority of goons. They would rather live under military protection than a democratically elected President.

Similarly, in the U.S., when push comes to shove, you will always have the middle folks side with the rich against the legions of leeches of society.

Cluck U wrote:

Chizzang wrote:A huge part of self preservation is seeing when enough is enough
and understanding that the present state of power is an illusion
sustained only by the thinnest of margins
Delicately separating 150 million people with nothing to lose from the 400 that own 52%

For the ultra wealthy, there is little to worry about. We all know the stories about elephants that are chained and trained while young. You can remove the chain when the elephant is older and the elephant will have conditioned himself to still believe he is restricted.

TV and our poor education system is the chain around most people's minds. People, in general, are nothing more than trained elephants who believe their potential is limited. Sure, you might have the one elephant that rampages and does some damage, but the rest will quietly blither along in compliance with their puny masters.

Look at Egypt. The people rebelled, the vast majority of people were peachy keen on getting rid of military rule and a dictator, and they, instead, got a democratically elected President who wanted to screw minorities, wealthy people, and any sane person. So the minority, with the support of some outsiders, had the military toss out the democratically elected whack job and protect them from the majority of goons. They would rather live under military protection than a democratically elected President.

Similarly, in the U.S., when push comes to shove, you will always have the middle folks side with the rich against the legions of leeches of society.

That hasn't always been true (see populist movement of the 1890's/early 20th century)

Besides, we're talking labor here, not leaches, JSO,

Comrade kalm has again touched a nerve of the parasite class and their useful fool JSO-type apologists who actually swallow their nonsense and whom they laugh at and despise as even more stupid than the peasants who know they're getting fvcked .....

"Hey Bill Gates, listen to this little piss ant nobody technician down there talking like he's one of us!"

houndawg wrote:Comrade kalm has again touched a nerve of the parasite class and their useful fool JSO-type apologists who actually swallow their nonsense and whom they laugh at and despise as even more stupid than the peasants who know they're getting fvcked .....

"Hey Bill Gates, listen to this little piss ant nobody technician down there talking like he's one of us!"

Once again, you failed to counter JSO's facts about money versus labor. Did the workers set up McDonald's, or did a businessman invest money and then hire the workers (who weren't smart enough or motivated enough to start their own business)?

None of your foolish deflection can hide the truth...so go run along and play with the other mouth breathers.

Cluck U wrote:

houndawg wrote:Comrade kalm has again touched a nerve of the parasite class and their useful fool JSO-type apologists who actually swallow their nonsense and whom they laugh at and despise as even more stupid than the peasants who know they're getting fvcked .....

"Hey Bill Gates, listen to this little piss ant nobody technician down there talking like he's one of us!"

Once again, you failed to counter JSO's facts about money versus labor. Did the workers set up McDonald's, or did a businessman invest money and then hire the workers (who weren't smart enough or motivated enough to start their own business)?

None of your foolish deflection can hide the truth...so go run along and play with the other mouth breathers.

a bit peevish this morning, Cuck....

kalm wrote: That hasn't always been true (see populist movement of the 1890's/early 20th century)

Besides, we're talking labor here, not leaches, JSO,

That's the same "populist" movement that brought us:
Prohibition
Income Tax
The Federal Reserve System
The 17th amendment (more on this later) AND
Eugenics

No thank you.

Baldy wrote:

kalm wrote: That hasn't always been true (see populist movement of the 1890's/early 20th century)

Besides, we're talking labor here, not leaches, JSO,

That's the same "populist" movement that brought us:
Prohibition
Income Tax
The Federal Reserve System
The 17th amendment (more on this later) AND
Eugenics

No thank you.

Well...it was a diverse group.

It also was instrumental in the development of labor laws and growing the middle class.