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RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:19 am
by kalm
Tons of interesting points in this one. But it is LOOOOOOONG. So buckle up if you'd like to be enlightened about our current form of government, how markets and the hoi poloi are manipulated through advertising to believe they have a little power in a "democracy" when they really have none, how the founding fathers were in on the scam, etc. :thumb:
There’s been an interesting debate over the years about the relation between capitalism and democracy, for example, are they even compatible? I won’t be pursuing this because I’d like to discuss a different system – what we could call the “really existing capitalist democracy”, RECD for short, pronounced “wrecked” by accident. To begin with, how does RECD compare with democracy? Well that depends on what we mean by “democracy”. There are several versions of this. One, there is a kind of received version. It’s soaring rhetoric of the Obama variety, patriotic speeches, what children are taught in school, and so on. In the U.S. version, it’s government “of, by and for the people”. And it’s quite easy to compare that with RECD...

In the United States, one of the main topics of academic political science is the study of attitudes and policy and their correlation. The study of attitudes is reasonably easy in the United States: heavily-polled society, pretty serious and accurate polls, and policy you can see, and you can compare them. And the results are interesting. In the work that’s essentially the gold standard in the field, it’s concluded that for roughly 70% of the population – the lower 70% on the wealth/income scale – they have no influence on policy whatsoever. They’re effectively disenfranchised. As you move up the wealth/income ladder, you get a little bit more influence on policy. When you get to the top, which is maybe a tenth of one percent, people essentially get what they want, i.e. they determine the policy. So the proper term for that is not democracy; it’s plutocracy...

These characteristics of RECD show up all the time. So the major domestic issue in the United States for the public is jobs. Polls show that very clearly. For the very wealthy and the financial institutions, the major issue is the deficit. Well, what about policy? There’s now a sequester in the United States, a sharp cutback in funds. Is that because of jobs or is it because of the deficit? Well, the deficit...

(Returning to the United States), where the situation is not quite that bad, there’s the same disparity between public opinion and policy on a very wide range of issues. Take for example the issue of minimum wage. The one view is that the minimum wage ought to be indexed to the cost of living and high enough to prevent falling below the poverty line. Eighty percent of the public support that and forty percent of the wealthy. What’s the minimum wage? Going down, way below these levels. It’s the same with laws that facilitate union activity: strongly supported by the public; opposed by the very wealthy – disappearing. The same is true on national healthcare. The U.S., as you may know, has a health system which is an international scandal, it has twice the per capita costs of other OECD countries and relatively poor outcomes. The only privatized, pretty much unregulated system. The public doesn’t like it. They’ve been calling for national healthcare, public options, for years, but the financial institutions think it’s fine, so it stays: stasis. In fact, if the United States had a healthcare system like comparable countries there wouldn’t be any deficit. The famous deficit would be erased, which doesn’t matter that much anyway.

One of the most interesting cases has to do with taxes. For 35 years there have been polls on ‘what do you think taxes ought to be?’ Large majorities have held that the corporations and the wealthy should pay higher taxes. They’ve steadily been going down through this period.

On and on, the policy throughout is almost the opposite of public opinion, which is a typical property of RECD.

In the past, the United States has sometimes, kind of sardonically, been described as a one-party state: the business party with two factions called Democrats and Republicans. That’s no longer true. It’s still a one-party state, the business party. But it only has one faction. The faction is moderate Republicans, who are now called Democrats. There are virtually no moderate Republicans in what’s called the Republican Party and virtually no liberal Democrats in what’s called the Democratic [sic] Party. :nod: It’s basically a party of what would be moderate Republicans and similarly, Richard Nixon would be way at the left of the political spectrum today. Eisenhower would be in outer space.

There is still something called the Republican Party, but it long ago abandoned any pretence of being a normal parliamentary party. It’s in lock-step service to the very rich and the corporate sector and has a catechism that everyone has to chant in unison, kind of like the old Communist Party. The distinguished conservative commentator, one of the most respected – Norman Ornstein – describes today’s Republican Party as, in his words, “a radical insurgency – ideologically extreme, scornful of facts and compromise, dismissive of its political opposition” – a serious danger to the society, as he points out.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky ... democracy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Democracy....pppphhhhht. Conks should be really happy with the way this has all turned out. :coffee:

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:29 am
by Pwns
I love how it cites per capita health care costs as if it's a bad thing in itself. How much of that has to do with us having the best cancer care bar none of any country in the world? And hospitals with the latest and greatest technology? And the best overall care for chronic diseases?

As far as the larger point about democracy, George Carlin has a point about this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0[/youtube]

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:15 am
by houndawg
Pwns wrote:I love how it cites per capita health care costs as if it's a bad thing in itself. How much of that has to do withus having the best cancer care bar none of any country in the world? And hospitals with the latest and greatest technology? And the best overall care for chronic diseases?

As far as the larger point about democracy, George Carlin has a point about this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0[/youtube]
:jack:

So how come our life expectancy is so far behind a couple dozen other first world countries? You'd think with all these wonders of medicine we'd be a healthier nation.

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:21 am
by Pwns
houndawg wrote:
Pwns wrote:I love how it cites per capita health care costs as if it's a bad thing in itself. How much of that has to do withus having the best cancer care bar none of any country in the world? And hospitals with the latest and greatest technology? And the best overall care for chronic diseases?

As far as the larger point about democracy, George Carlin has a point about this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0[/youtube]
:jack:

So how come our life expectancy is so far behind a couple dozen other first world countries? You'd think with all these wonders of medicine we'd be a healthier nation.
Maybe it has to do with more deaths from things like smoking, diabetes, heart disease, etc?

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:34 am
by ∞∞∞
Pwns wrote:Maybe it has to do with more deaths from things like smoking, diabetes, heart disease, etc?
Image

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:47 am
by Chizzang
Image

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:20 pm
by JohnStOnge
If you step back and look at the forest you can see that the lower income levels have plenty of influence on policy. We have Medicaid. We have the "food stamps" system (now largely a food debit card system). We have "welfare." It's pretty much ridiculous to say that the lower 70% have no influence.

Another thing: It's pretty ridiculous to say that we'd have no deficit if only we had socialized medicine.

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:25 pm
by houndawg
JohnStOnge wrote:If you step back and look at the forest you can see that the lower income levels have plenty of influence on policy. We have Medicaid. We have the "food stamps" system (now largely a food debit card system). We have "welfare." It's pretty much ridiculous to say that the lower 70% have no influence.

Another thing: It's pretty ridiculous to say that we'd have no deficit if only we had socialized medicine.
Wrong again Johnster. The real welfare is given to defense contractors and corporate farms. :ohno:



Also, sodomy.

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:58 pm
by JohnStOnge
Wrong again Johnster. The real welfare is given to defense contractors and corporate farms.
The question of whether or not what you're talking about is welfare is another debate. But whether that is "welfare" or not, there is no question that this country spends a lot of money on direct benefits for lower income people and middle income people as well. It's ridiculous to say that the lower 70% of the population has no influence.

All you have to do to see that the lower income levels have influence is contemplate the question of which of the two major parties has had had more power over the last century and look at national election exit polls. If upper income people had their way it'd be the Republican Party. If the majority of upper income people had had their way Romney would be President right now and the Republicans would control both houses of Congress. There wouldn't be any "Obamacare" set of laws in place for Republicans to rail against. Going farther back there never would have been any Social Security and Medicare systems established. No "Great Society" programs either.

This guy is totally off the wall (as, in my opinion, he normally is).

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:02 pm
by expandspanos
Since we're posting George Carlin stuff:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu3hy4OMX38[/youtube]

Re: RECD

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:55 pm
by Ivytalk
Kalm, I have to thank you for shortening that Godforsaken Chomsky piece. Do you know how long that bastard has been on my Donk deathwatch list? Years! And I actually read the whole fucking thing, right up to the end where the old Commie fucker launches an all-out attack on private property as we approach the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta. It's a cosmic old Left belch-fart of all the old grievances. And you know what, my Progressive golf-management friend? Noam is no more coherent now than he was 50 years ago! Tell you what. You save us from more of Noam's mental masturbation, and I'l! never bitch about any of your Taibbi or Greenwald screeds again! Or your hapless, shallow-Hal compatriot houndawg's meaningless, substance-free posts either! Buds? :lol:

Re: RECD

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:20 am
by houndawg
Ivytalk wrote:Kalm, I have to thank you for shortening that Godforsaken Chomsky piece. Do you know how long that bastard has been on my Donk deathwatch list? Years! And I actually read the whole **** thing, right up to the end where the old Commie **** launches an all-out attack on private property as we approach the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta. It's a cosmic old Left belch-fart of all the old grievances. And you know what, my Progressive golf-management friend? Noam is no more coherent now than he was 50 years ago! Tell you what. You save us from more of Noam's mental masturbation, and I'l! never bitch about any of your Taibbi or Greenwald screeds again! Or your hapless, shallow-Hal compatriot houndawg's meaningless, substance-free posts either! Buds? :lol:
:lol:

Why don't you and Dick Cheney go quail hunting sometime, Mr. Deep and Profound, Esq.?