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Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:55 am
by kalm
Justice!

:ohno:
The government may very well decide to go after Chase in what it considers a big way. It may do the same for Bank of America, and then it may keep going on down the line to other banks, until it has collected a billion dollars or so from all the usual suspects, who were virtually all engaged in the same kinds of schemes, gathering and selling to customers radioactive mortgage bonds they knew were likely to explode, or were ridden with fraud and faulty underwriting.

But to me, these investigations will be meaningless unless one of two things happens, once they reach the inevitable stage of concluding painstakingly-crafted settlements with the inevitable teams of high-priced lawyers for the offending firms:

1) Someone goes to jail.

2) The company is ordered to break itself up into smaller pieces. :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

As to point one, here's the thing. If criminal laws were violated, then the government certainly has discretion to exercise mercy and seek non-criminal sanctions against the individuals responsible. But they can really only do that and not be total hypocrites if they also simultaneously implement leniency programs for ordinary street criminals at the same time.

Just yesterday, for instance, a federal judge in Mississippi handed down a six-month sentence to a man and ordered him to pay $8,282 in restitution for food stamp fraud – one Stanley Jones apparently lied in an application about whether or not anyone in his household had ever been convicted of a felony drug charge when he applied for food stamps.

Stanley Jones is going to do six months in jail for fraud in a case brought by the same Justice Department now sniffing around Chase and Bank of America. I would be shocked if $8,282 didn't represent the entire amount of value "taken" via Jones's fraud. I spent a lot of time with people targeted for welfare fraud for my upcoming book, The Divide, and the state never settles for anything less than every last dollar in these cases. Incidentally, you can find cases like this pretty much every day in every state in the country. Guaranteed, someone somewhere in America right now is drawing jail time for some form of welfare fraud.

Meanwhile, S.E.C. target Fab Tourre – the Goldman exec who joked about selling bad bonds to "widows and orphans" – will not do a day in jail for his part in a fraud that caused two banks in Europe to lose over a billion dollars. And Fab's restitution will range from $30,000 to $780,000, depending upon how much judge Katherine Forrest decides to ding him for each of his six counts of civil fraud. (It will be very interesting to see where she lands on that decision). Fab's bank, Goldman, Sachs, has already settled for $550 million for the same case, which is a lot of money, but again less than the total amount of the damage. And nobody went to jail...


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Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:00 am
by CAA Flagship
That POS should go to jail for having lied on his food stamp application. Damn donk. :ohno:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:07 am
by AZGrizFan
CAA Flagship wrote:That POS should go to jail for having lied on his food stamp application. Damn donk. :ohno:
No shit. Fuckin' donks are gonna suck this country dry. :ohno: :ohno:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:33 am
by ALPHAGRIZ1
Why do you guys hate the poor and hungry?


They are entitled to this government aid when will it sink through your hard working conservative skulls?

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:42 am
by Baldy
CAA Flagship wrote:That POS should go to jail for having lied on his food stamp application. Damn donk. :ohno:
:rofl:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:11 am
by 89Hen
I spent a lot of time with people targeted for welfare fraud for my upcoming book, The Divide...
Why I hate "journalists". Writing ALWAYS with an agenda to sell. :ohno:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:30 am
by dbackjon
It is disgusting how easily the banking industry can steal billions, and walk away. Most executives in the banking industry need to have 100% of their ill gotten gains confiscated, and spend the rest of their lives in JAIL.

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:37 am
by Grizalltheway
dbackjon wrote:It is disgusting how easily the banking industry can steal billions, and walk away. Most executives in the banking industry need to have 100% of their ill gotten gains confiscated, and spend the rest of their lives in JAIL.
Pretty stark difference between a public defender and an attorney with a six-figure retainer...

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:49 am
by kalm
89Hen wrote:
I spent a lot of time with people targeted for welfare fraud for my upcoming book, The Divide...
Why I hate "journalists". Writing ALWAYS with an agenda to sell. :ohno:
No problem with criminal bankers...begrudges someone else trying to make an honest buck... :ohno:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:39 am
by 89Hen
dbackjon wrote:It is disgusting how easily the banking industry can steal billions, and walk away. Most executives in the banking industry need to have 100% of their ill gotten gains confiscated, and spend the rest of their lives in JAIL.
Most?

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:39 am
by 89Hen
kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: Why I hate "journalists". Writing ALWAYS with an agenda to sell. :ohno:
No problem with criminal bankers...begrudges someone else trying to make an honest buck... :ohno:
Oh you liberals with your hyperbole. :coffee:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:34 am
by kalm
89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:
No problem with criminal bankers...begrudges someone else trying to make an honest buck... :ohno:
Oh you liberals with your hyperbole. :coffee:
I'm not a liberal...I'm a progressive... :mrgreen:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:07 pm
by 89Hen
kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: Oh you liberals with your hyperbole. :coffee:
I'm not a liberal...I'm a progressive... :mrgreen:
:lol: :thumb:

Re: Food Stamp Fraud > Billions

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:53 am
by JohnStOnge
The Fab Tourre case was a civil case. He was found "liable." In a civil case the standard is a preponderance of the evidence. At least that's how I understand things. You're probably not going to go to jail if you're found liable. You're just going to have to pay.

Lying on a federal application is a criminal violation. Being convicted means you were shown to have violated the law beyond a reasonable doubt. If you lie to the Federal investigators or on a Federal form and get convicted you're probably going to jail. Just ask Martha Stewart. If Tourre had been convicted of lying to Federal investigators or on a Federal form he'd have done time.

The author is, I think, comparing apples and oranges. Or grapes and watermelons. Something like that.

Basically, there's not that high a level of certainty thatTourre was guilty of anything. As the author of the article at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 50004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; noted:
The unambiguous result surprised many lawyers who had watched the proceedings, expecting that the esoteric subject matter and more than two weeks of conflicting testimony would make a clear-cut victory unlikely.
But it was a jury and I'm sure a lot of time was spent by SEC lawyers playing to natural tendencies to resent people in positions like Mr. Tourre's. Regardless, as I understand it, "preponderance of the evidence" means just slightly enough evidence to incline reasonable minds to believe one point of view over the other. And that's all it takes in civil court.