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The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:28 am
by D1B
Found this excellent piece where the author, in response to a growing catholic child abuse catastrophe in St. Louis, really nails down the psyche of theSuper Catholic. A super catholic is a Jolinesque or 89Handjob-like apologist who is so blinded by loyalty they're willing to justify the greatest of church atrocities and attack those who report them, including victims.

The author, btw, is catholic. A good, not "super" catholic.
The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night
By Rod Dreher • July 21, 2013, 10:06 AM

I’ve been thinking lately about a serious situation I’ve learned about recently in which some good people I know prefer preserving their peace of mind to facing the painful truth. In talking to a friend about this stuff the other day, I brought up the conversation my niece Hannah and I had in Paris — I tell this story in Little Way — in which I told her there’s nothing wrong with happiness, but we must not seek to maintain or achieve happiness at the expense of the truth. That prompted Hannah to immediately put me to the test by revealing an extremely painful truth about how her sister saw me. I’m still struggling with the fallout from that, but I have never for one moment regretted her telling me this, because it is much, much better to deal with the real world, in all its disorder, than with a comforting lie. In most cases, the happiness believing in the comforting lie brings us is bought at too high a price.

That came to mind this morning in reading posts by Kevin O’Brien that a reader sent to me. Kevin is a St. Louis Catholic who has been blogging about a growing scandal in his archdiocese. The details are here, but the outline is a familiar one: priest molests minor after getting close to her family, family complains to archbishop, archbishop refuses to remove priest from service, until criminal charges were filed. A twist here is that Archbishop Carlson, according to a civil suit, allegedly tried to destroy physical evidence testifying to the accused priest’s guilt. The priest lived with Abp Carlson, and was very close to him, having followed him to St. Louis from his previous post in Michigan.

Kevin O’Brien notes this in one of his postings on the subject:

The family claims that they discovered emails of a sexual nature the priest was secretly sending the daughter. If these emails actually exist, their content will be revealed in both the criminal and the civil trials – if either case comes to trial. Since the DA in Lincoln County is prosecuting this case, it is almost certain that these emails do in fact exist; a case like this would not be prosecuted on the victim’s verbal claims alone, if the claims were not somehow substantiated with hard evidence.

Speaking of hard evidence, the family claims that the priest tried to buy off their testimony against him with a $20,000 check, which he placed on the windshield of their car. The family also claims that Archbishop Carlson intervened to try to get this check back. The family took the check to the police. The check has led to an additional charge against the priest – tampering with a witness. The check must exist, or this additional charge would not have been raised by the prosecutor. (Incidentally, another Post-Dispatch commenter (Joltin Joe?) said the family is suing the archdiocese because they’re in desperate financial straits and they need money – if that’s their motivation, why didn’t they keep a $20,000 check?)

Kevin writes that he has been struck by how people he calls “Super-Catholics” have heartily embraced the “defend this priest and the Archbishop at all costs” mentality. Abp Carlson and Fr. Jiang have reputations for being solid orthodox Catholics. Haven’t we learned our lesson, he writes, with the cases of Fr. Corapi, Fr. Maciel, Fr. Euteneur, Bishop Finn, and other orthodox Catholic leaders who were revealed to have done serious wrong, in spite of their professed Catholic orthodoxy? Later, Kevin blogged:

Re. Fr. Jiang and Archbishop Carlson, I just wrote to a friend about the difficulty of blogging about this …

I keep trying to address the fact that we don’t really know all the facts here – but even when we did (as in the Bishop Finn case), the Super-Catholics still rallied around their guy and vilified the victims.
So, yes, I’m skeptical and I’m cynical. The story told by the alleged victim in Old Monroe fits a pattern; it rings true. It may be false. But apparently there’s enough evidence to substantiate it, and if it is indeed true, it means we’re dealing with a level of depravity in our archdiocese that no one is going to want to face head on. It means that clergy and laity alike will lie thorough their teeth or at least bend the truth in order to keep up appearances and reputation. It means that children and families will be sacrificed for the sake of status and power.

If the allegations are false, then we’re dealing with a similar level of depravity on the other side.

Either way, I pray that we all have the courage to confront the truth when it finally comes out. If it finally comes out.

But I fear that if this girl has indeed been victimized, and if Archbishop Carlson has indeed enabled the crime and attempted to cover it up, my fellow theologically orthodox Catholics will look the other way, call Bill Donohue (Joltin Joe or 89 Hen) for a spin job, and crucify me and any other Catholic who reports on this in the process.

Yes, this will happen. It’s happened before, and it will happen again. It’s human nature. People would rather believe the lie that helps them make sense of the world and sleep well at night. It’s true in religion, it’s true in politics, it’s true of everything that our humanity touches. A few years ago, I knew a woman whose family was really messed up. Her father had serious mental problems that were dramatically affecting the emotional health of the family system. But everybody in the family had to pretend that Everything Is Fine With Dad, because to face the obvious would mean that everything is not fine, and nobody wanted to deal with that. My friend really suffered from this, as did everybody in the family — and one component of the suffering was the sense that the situation was hopeless, because too many of her family members were emotionally dependent on not confronting the problem. I’ve heard this kind of thing over and over from friends who have had alcoholics in the family — and who, in a couple of cases I can think of, had to separate themselves from their families to protect themselves and their children from the family system that demanded assent to the Big Lie — that Dad Is Fine — in order to be a member in good standing. My friends felt the cost to their own integrity, even their safety, depended on separating themselves from a system that crushed the truth for the sake of maintaining itself. One of these friends told me that she could live with the Big Lie in her family, because she always had, but she did not want her children growing up to be inculcated in the values of her corrupt family system, because she feared it would expose them to danger down the road.

The book I’m reading now, The Captive Mind, by the Polish anti-communist dissident intellectual Czeslaw Milosz, examines four cases of fellow intellectuals who embraced the Big Lie of Communism, and what it cost their minds and souls. The danger to men like Kevin O’Brien is that the people who demand that the Big Lie is true, and that anybody who denies the Big Lie is an Enemy, will drive the truth-tellers into a place of bitter cynicism. In the case of the Church, if you come to see authority figures as profoundly untrustworthy (or worse), you may come to cease believing in their authority in other areas, and come to think everything they say — even the truthful things — is part of the Big Lie, or at least might be.

Fr. Jiang and Archbishop Carlson may be innocent here, but presuming their innocence does not require turning oneself into a credulous fool. It is very, very hard to walk the tightrope between cynicism and credulity; I struggle with this every day. The problem is when you don’t struggle at all. Hardcore cynicism is a different kind of Big Lie.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:09 am
by JoltinJoe
I think you misconstrue the point of this article. The author is suggesting that rigidly orthodox/conservative Catholics refuse to accept accusations against clergy who are rigidly orthodox/conservative. Since I hardly qualify for a rigidly orthodox/conservative Catholic, you are misdirecting the commentary at me.

I have no knowledge of the guilt or innocence of anyone discussed in this story. I know nothing about the case.

It sounds like the priest is guilty of molesting a young girl. The parents discovered the abuse and reported it to the Archbishop (who investigated and apparently acknowledged to the parents that the abuse occurred) and to the prosecutor's office.

There is no indication that the abusive priest had ever been accused before.

The priest then apparently tried to buy off the family by giving them a check for $20,000. The family turned the check over the prosecutor.

Under these facts, the family doesn't really have a great case against the diocese, because the success of such cases depend on the diocese having prior notice of wrongful action.

Nonetheless, the family is suing the diocese, alleging that the Bishop contacted them and asked to get the $20,000 check back. It is on this allegation alone that the diocese has been brought into the civil suit.

Other than the family's claim about the request, there really is no proof the Bishop asked for the check back.

The family also suggests that the diocese gave the priest the $20,000, but at the moment, there is no proof of that either.

Even if the diocese tried to tamper with the witnesses, that does not create any genuine standing for the family to assert some tort theory against the diocese. The family was not damaged legally, in any sense, by the conduct alleged on the part of the diocese.

An attempt to tamper with witnesses is a crime, but the family suffered no legal damages from the attempt (even if you characterize it as a civil conspiracy).

Along the same lines, my tort professor use to say, "There is no civil claim for attempted fraud. Attempted fraud isn't very nice, but you have to have been damaged." Same thing holds here.

So the proofs here against the bishop are pretty slim and probably don't amount to a legitimate civil claim anyway.

That is not to say the allegations are false. My problem with so many of these cases is that accusations are often treated by the media, SNAP, and others as nearly irrefutably true.

There is the case of the priest who was pastor of the church I went to as a child (I gave you his name when we met, but would prefer not to identify him so as to avoid further embarrassment to him). He was publicly accused, forced to step down, publicly humiliated with front-page stories.

But when the prosecutors cleared him and publicly stated he was actually innocent of the accusations, the story barely made the papers.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:10 am
by ALPHAGRIZ1
The guy that wrote that article is seriously named Rod Dreyer?

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:24 am
by andy7171
ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:The guy that wrote that article is seriously named Rod Dreyer?
:lol:
Is that an occupation or a symptom?

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:53 pm
by D1B
JoltinJoe wrote:I think you misconstrue the point of this article. The author is suggesting that rigidly orthodox/conservative Catholics refuse to accept accusations against clergy who are rigidly orthodox/conservative. Since I hardly qualify for a rigidly orthodox/conservative Catholic, you are misdirecting the commentary at me.

I have no knowledge of the guilt or innocence of anyone discussed in this story. I know nothing about the case.

It sounds like the priest is guilty of molesting a young girl. The parents discovered the abuse and reported it to the Archbishop (who investigated and apparently acknowledged to the parents that the abuse occurred) and to the prosecutor's office.

There is no indication that the abusive priest had ever been accused before.

The priest then apparently tried to buy off the family by giving them a check for $20,000. The family turned the check over the prosecutor.

Under these facts, the family doesn't really have a great case against the diocese, because the success of such cases depend on the diocese having prior notice of wrongful action.

Nonetheless, the family is suing the diocese, alleging that the Bishop contacted them and asked to get the $20,000 check back. It is on this allegation alone that the diocese has been brought into the civil suit.

Other than the family's claim about the request, there really is no proof the Bishop asked for the check back.

The family also suggests that the diocese gave the priest the $20,000, but at the moment, there is no proof of that either.

Even if the diocese tried to tamper with the witnesses, that does not create any genuine standing for the family to assert some tort theory against the diocese. The family was not damaged legally, in any sense, by the conduct alleged on the part of the diocese.

An attempt to tamper with witnesses is a crime, but the family suffered no legal damages from the attempt (even if you characterize it as a civil conspiracy).

Along the same lines, my tort professor use to say, "There is no civil claim for attempted fraud. Attempted fraud isn't very nice, but you have to have been damaged." Same thing holds here.

So the proofs here against the bishop are pretty slim and probably don't amount to a legitimate civil claim anyway.

That is not to say the allegations are false. My problem with so many of these cases is that accusations are often treated by the media, SNAP, and others as nearly irrefutably true.

There is the case of the priest who was pastor of the church I went to as a child (I gave you his name when we met, but would prefer not to identify him so as to avoid further embarrassment to him). He was publicly accused, forced to step down, publicly humiliated with front-page stories.

But when the prosecutors cleared him and publicly stated he was actually innocent of the accusations, the story barely made the papers.
Super response, right on cue. :thumb: :lol:

Check out Abuse Tracker for more background information. This one, if true, is gonna severely damage the church, at least in St. Louis. The priest in question lived with the Archbishop.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:46 pm
by blueballs
So the guy baptized her with hot cum... what's the problem????

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:45 pm
by JohnStOnge
Wow. A heterosexual priest this time.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:47 pm
by JohnStOnge
heck out Abuse Tracker for more background information.
So THAT'S how you keep track of all those things.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:53 pm
by JohnStOnge
Looks like it wasn't pedophilia, by the way. Looked it up on that tracker thing like D suggested and he met the girl when she was 15. Probably a sexually mature female at breeding stage of development. Illegal? Yes. Pedophilia? No.

Fire away.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:41 pm
by D1B
JohnStOnge wrote:
heck out Abuse Tracker for more background information.
So THAT'S how you keep track of all those things.
Yep. There is a plethora of orgs keeping a close eye on the church because the church refuses to monitor itself. Its a petulant spoiled gay child.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:45 pm
by D1B
JohnStOnge wrote:Wow. A heterosexual priest this time.
We'll see. He may be bisexual and may have had a concurrent homosexual relationship with the archbishop.

Back in the day, any pedophile/pervert/psycho fuck could and did become a priest. Many are still active - they just haven't been caught.

St. Wronge - you would have made a great pedophile priest.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:08 pm
by houndawg
D1B wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Wow. A heterosexual priest this time.
We'll see. He may be bisexual and may have had a concurrent homosexual relationship with the archbishop.

Back in the day, any pedophile/pervert/psycho **** could and did become a priest. Many are still active - they just haven't been caught.

St. Wronge - you would have made a great pedophile priest.
He qualifies for the Senate if he's a Republican... :coffee:

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:11 pm
by D1B
houndawg wrote:
D1B wrote:
We'll see. He may be bisexual and may have had a concurrent homosexual relationship with the archbishop.

Back in the day, any pedophile/pervert/psycho **** could and did become a priest. Many are still active - they just haven't been caught.

St. Wronge - you would have made a great pedophile priest.
He qualifies for the Senate if he's a Republican... :coffee:
....or pope.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:53 am
by D1B
2000 years as "christ's own church" and this is what it has produced: :ohno:
After the parents discovered the abuse, they confronted Fr. Jiang about it, and Jiang admitted it to them. He then tried to give them a $20,000 check. Archbishop Carlson soon called the parents and told them that Fr Jiang also admitted the wrongdoing to him. During that conversation, the mother asked Carlson if Jiang would be removed from the priesthood and Archbishop Carlson responded that he would remove Jiang if he “had sex” with the child, but not for activities other than that. Archbishop Carlson then suggested that the parents return the $20,000 check to him. :ohno:
Great Archbishop. The time is now for the federal government to raid each and every archdiocese and perform a thorough investigation of child sexual abuse in the church.



ST. LOUIS (MO)
Chackes, Carlson and Halquist

CCH FILES LAWSUIT ALLEGING DIRECT INVOLVEMENT BY ARCHBISHOP OF ST LOUIS IN FAILING TO SUPERVISE ABUSIVE PRIEST

CCH attorneys Ken Chackes and Nicole Gorovsky filed a new lawsuit on behalf of a young teenage girl and her parents, seeking to hold the Archdiocese of St Louis and Archbishop Robert Carlson responsible for the injuries they caused due to sexual abuse of the young girl by a priest. The accused priest, Fr. Xiu Hui “Joseph” Jiang, was personally supervised by Archbishop Carlson since the priest was moved from China to the United States, while Carlson was a Bishop in Michigan. Fr. Jiang moved with Carlson to St Louis when he became Archbishop, and lived in the Archbishop’s residence.

The young girl first met Jiang when she was fifteen years old and she attended church with her family at the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis. Jiang became very close to the family and he regularly visited their home in Lincoln County, Missouri.

The Archdiocese and Archbishop had at least two warnings about Jiang. During the time that Jiang was getting close to the young girl, he reported to his superiors that he needed a reassignment because he was having personal problems. But despite the warnings, Jiang was allowed to resume unlimited access to this young girl and her family.

After the parents discovered the abuse, they confronted Fr. Jiang about it, and Jiang admitted it to them. He then tried to give them a $20,000 check. Archbishop Carlson soon called the parents and told them that Fr Jiang also admitted the wrongdoing to him. During that conversation, the mother asked Carlson if Jiang would be removed from the priesthood and Archbishop Carlson responded that he would remove Jiang if he “had sex” with the child, but not for activities other than that. Archbishop Carlson then suggested that the parents return the $20,000 check to him.

Instead, the parents turned the matter over to the police. Jiang is now being prosecuted criminally for two felonies, for engaging in sexual conduct with the child and for victim tampering by trying to pay the family to let the matter drop. The criminal case is being prosecuted by the Prosecuting Attorney of Lincoln County

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:34 pm
by JoltinJoe
The accusations against the bishop derive from the claimants' allegations about what was said during a single phone call.

And even if what they claim the bishop said is true, they have no damages in any legal sense from what he is alleged to have said.

Re-read that press release. Don't you have any critical or analytical reading skills? The whole case against the diocese and the bishop is entirely conjecture.

But you presume anything negative about the Church or its clergy is true.

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:32 pm
by D1B
JoltinJoe wrote:The accusations against the bishop derive from the claimants' allegations about what was said during a single phone call.

And even if what they claim the bishop said is true, they have no damages in any legal sense from what he is alleged to have said.

Re-read that press release. Don't you have any critical or analytical reading skills? The whole case against the diocese and the bishop is entirely conjecture.

But you presume anything negative about the Church or its clergy is true.
Joe, you may want to get your eyes checked. :thumb:

Bishop knew he had a pedophile.

Bishop knew pedophile was grooming girl.

Bishop, like a typical catholic bishop, did nothing.

Pedophile molested girl.

Church is fucked.

Spin away Donohue......

Re: The Lie That Helps Us Sleep At Night.....

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:04 pm
by JohnStOnge
Bishop knew he had a pedophile.

Bishop knew pedophile was grooming girl.

Bishop, like a typical catholic bishop, did nothing.

Pedophile molested girl.
Almost certain that pedophilia was not involved here. Here is a quote from a dispassionate treatise of the biology of our species (treating discussion of human biology as one would treat discussion of any other animal) at http://brainmuseum.org/specimens/primates/human/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:
Human children are born after a nine-month gestation period, and are typically 3­4 kilograms (6­9 pounds) in weight and 50­60 centimeters (20­24 inches) in height in developed countries. Helpless at birth, they continue to grow for some years, typically reaching sexual maturity at twelve to fifteen years of age.
The priest in this case was dealing with what almost certainly was, biologically, a sexually mature female. One of these days I hope to get the people on this site to understand that Mother Nature does not care where we set our legal age limits. Sure, there may be good reasons for making "legal age" higher than the age at which sexual maturity is reached. But, people, when a female of a dioecious species reaches sexual maturity it's going to be natural for mails of the species to have the desire to mate with her.

And it's not pedophila in particular or any kind of disorder in general. It's Mother Nature.