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even though GM's management has requested the government sell its stake.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/genera ... 2012-09-17

Buy low, sell high, not the other way around there CG.

Is the guvmint a "rational investor" after all? Multibilliondollar loss, eh?

Hell, Uncle Sam, sell it and take the tax loss before your cap gains rates go up on January 1!

How about GM follows the lead of some other bailed out companies and changes their business plan to actually get the stock price back up and pay back the American taxpayers?

danefan wrote:How about GM follows the lead of some other bailed out companies and changes their business plan to actually get the stock price back up and pay back the American taxpayers?

That's easier said than done. What do you suggest?

Wedgebuster wrote:Buy low, sell high, not the other way around there CG.

That sounds like a great plan. The problem is that GM's stock price is never going to reach the Gubmint Motors IPO price.

CitadelGrad wrote:

Wedgebuster wrote:Buy low, sell high, not the other way around there CG.

That sounds like a great plan. The problem is that GM's stock price is never going to reach the Gubmint Motors IPO price.

General Motors isn't quite bright enough to start a side company (ah la United Airlines TED)
A company that builds cars
and doesn't have a crippling union
doesn't have a Pension plan that buries in debt before each financial quarter even begins

GM needs to work towards shit canning its existing brands that are under the GM moniker
and creating new companies not related to the old structure - it's called - REORGANIZING
They're really really shitty at it

CitadelGrad wrote:

danefan wrote:How about GM follows the lead of some other bailed out companies and changes their business plan to actually get the stock price back up and pay back the American taxpayers?

That's easier said than done. What do you suggest?

Scale down your business and focus on only your strengths. Use all the proceeds from the sale of non-core business units to repay your bailout funds and buy back shares from the Government.

There's a certain insurance company which seems to be a pretty good blueprint for a successful restructuring from the brink.

That all sounds rather vague and Gubmint ain't selling its shares back.

Chizzang wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
That sounds like a great plan. The problem is that GM's stock price is never going to reach the Gubmint Motors IPO price.

General Motors isn't quite bright enough to start a side company (ah la United Airlines TED)
A company that builds cars
and doesn't have a crippling union
doesn't have a Pension plan that buries in debt before each financial quarter even begins

GM needs to work towards shit canning its existing brands that are under the GM moniker
and creating new companies not related to the old structure - it's called - REORGANIZING
They're really really shitty at it

Yeah, I'm sure the UAW wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

CitadelGrad wrote:That all sounds rather vague and Gubmint ain't selling its shares back.

It will sell them back if GM pays the break-even price.

And of course its vague. I don't know enough about GM's business.

Have they restructured everything that caused their issues in the first place?

CitadelGrad wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
General Motors isn't quite bright enough to start a side company (ah la United Airlines TED)
A company that builds cars
and doesn't have a crippling union
doesn't have a Pension plan that buries in debt before each financial quarter even begins

GM needs to work towards shit canning its existing brands that are under the GM moniker
and creating new companies not related to the old structure - it's called - REORGANIZING
They're really really shitty at it

Yeah, I'm sure the UAW wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

Restructuring doesn't typically involve outside opinions from 'workers'
its about becoming functional

The Guvmint needs a GM stock price of $53 per share for the taxpayers to "break even." Fat chance of that happening anytime soon.

This was always a bailout of public perception. Although it doesn't sound great to phrase it as such, Obama was right to bail out GM when he did just based on the principle that it avoided a ton of bad news at a time when the market psyche, as well as just individual pysche's, were at the breaking point. At some point you have to stop the continual string of bad news, and at the time, it was just one massive layoff after another. Bailing out GM, and ensuring as many people as they did would keep working, was, in the short term, a good thing.

However, preventing bad news then didn't mean that it was solved - all we did was kick the bad news can down the road. Eventually, the issues with GM (debilitating union, crappy management, high costs, poor product, etc) were never really solved, no matter how much was written off of the books onto the "Old GM" when the "New GM" was formed. And now, something that has been slowly building but will get worse and worse over time, is the issue of government investment in GM. At some point, we're going to take a bath on the losses from this investment. The only question is, when do we cut the rope and how much do we lose in total. Again, all we did was delay the bad news - at some point, we'll have to face the bad news that GM isn't fixable and will likely enter real bankruptcy. That was always the reality of the long term view.

The bailout was screwed up from the start. I could accept the govt bailing them out but not when they let the UAW in on it too because they are part of the problem. All they did was dump money down a rathole.

Chizzang wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure the UAW wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

Restructuring doesn't typically involve outside opinions from 'workers'
its about becoming functional

We aren't talking about outside opinions. You do realize that the UAW has an ownership stake in GM, don't you?

CitadelGrad wrote:

Chizzang wrote:

Restructuring doesn't typically involve outside opinions from 'workers'
its about becoming functional

We aren't talking about outside opinions. You do realize that the UAW has an ownership stake in GM, don't you?

Of course...
But restructuring is a Board Process
I don't know what the percentage is that The United Auto Workers own but I understand it's not horrible
like 17% of one brand and 35% of another etc.. etc...

So the brands need to be dismantled and replaced
This can be done as long as they don't own a majority

it's a pipe dram though GM will fail completely - fully and completely fail

GM hasn't produced a quality product since 1968. No amount of restructuring is going to help them. Ford and every foreign manufacturer has been eating their lunch for 20 years. Nothing more than a make-work program for the UAW, and now the only buyer stupid enough to invest is the US government. Go figure.

HI54UNI wrote:The bailout was screwed up from the start. I could accept the govt bailing them out but not when they let the UAW in on it too because they are part of the problem. All they did was dump money down a rathole.

And screw a lot of legitimate GM creditors in the process.

CID1990 wrote:GM hasn't produced a quality product since 1968. No amount of restructuring is going to help them. Ford and every foreign manufacturer has been eating their lunch for 20 years. Nothing more than a make-work program for the UAW, and now the only buyer stupid enough to invest is the US government. Go figure.

And what 1968 product, pray tell, was that? The Pontiac GTO?

Ivytalk wrote:

CID1990 wrote:GM hasn't produced a quality product since 1968. No amount of restructuring is going to help them. Ford and every foreign manufacturer has been eating their lunch for 20 years. Nothing more than a make-work program for the UAW, and now the only buyer stupid enough to invest is the US government. Go figure.

And what 1968 product, pray tell, was that? The Pontiac GTO?

I rented a Corvette ZR-1 in 2010 or so and drove from Las Vegas to Phoenix
met up with AZGF and Dback
then got a $1500 speeding ticket for going something like 125 mph in a 60

SWEET..!!!

Ivytalk wrote:

CID1990 wrote:GM hasn't produced a quality product since 1968. No amount of restructuring is going to help them. Ford and every foreign manufacturer has been eating their lunch for 20 years. Nothing more than a make-work program for the UAW, and now the only buyer stupid enough to invest is the US government. Go figure.

And what 1968 product, pray tell, was that? The Pontiac GTO?

The Corvette was good that year.

Ivytalk wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:The bailout was screwed up from the start. I could accept the govt bailing them out but not when they let the UAW in on it too because they are part of the problem. All they did was dump money down a rathole.

And screw a lot of legitimate GM creditors in the process.

Very true.

Between GM and its former financing arm GMAC (now Ally financial) the taxpayers are still nearly 38 Billion in the hole from GM:
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Until they have fully paid back the taxpayers I'll never even consider buying anything from them.

I'll never buy anything from Chrysler, either. Taxpayers will never be fully repaid.