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It's been brought up in a couple of different threads now - our education system needs to be reformed. Do you agree? What would you do to change it?

1. Nuke No Child Left Behind...then stomp on the ashes.
2. Start reviving gifted programs that have been destroyed by NCLB
3. Abandon this ridiculous idea that every kid is college material...stop teaching kids you are a loser if you don't have a college education. Stop loaning massive amounts of money to college kids to get useless degrees.
4. Encourage more kids to look at vocational/technical school (won't happen because anyone who would propose it would be accused of rrrrrrrrrrrrrrracism!)
5. Make teacher pay based on a combination of supply-and-demand and merit. It is bats*** insane that middle school english teachers with cereal box graduate degrees can make $70,000 a year while an adjunct teaching calculus to engineering majors makes $25,000.

In short, BOTH sides of the "education war" need to be destroyed.

Totally agree with PWNS on vocational training. Middle school should be used to identify which kids are worthy of an academic path so that by high school the ones lacking in academic aptitude can begin working towards an apprenticeship in a trade and by graduation are employable at a decent wage. But all kids in high school should get heavy doses of civics and personal finance.

Another pipe dream would be for 2 years of compulsory service in the military or jobs corps for all 18 year olds. I think a good chunk of 18 year olds lack the maturity and discipline to be unleashed on their own in an unrestrictive college environment.

Big education needs to change from the top, with the CEO (Admin) pay. The local school budget here has 27% for teachers pay, the rest for admin and building expenses.

kalm wrote:Totally agree with PWNS on vocational training. Middle school should be used to identify which kids are worthy of an academic path so that by high school the ones lacking in academic aptitude can begin working towards an apprenticeship in a trade and by graduation are employable at a decent wage. But all kids in high school should get heavy doses of civics and personal finance.

Another pipe dream would be for 2 years of compulsory service in the military or jobs corps for all 18 year olds. I think a good chunk of 18 year olds lack the maturity and discipline to be unleashed on their own in an unrestrictive college environment.

Instead of "gifting" the Military a bunch of fresh kids to "re-program"
I would make it mandatory for all non-college 18 year-ers to join the "infrastructure rebuilding program"
A 24 month work program - up at 7:00 am - National rebuilding of the infrastructure
Military service should be an "option" Go Military or Go Infrastructure / You choose

I know it sounds a little Red Army
But we need a little re-structuring of our youth

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... ol-system/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Given the cultural differences between the US and Finland they may as well be on different planets, but there's a lot we can learn from them and other countries that out perform us.

kalm wrote:Totally agree with PWNS on vocational training. Middle school should be used to identify which kids are worthy of an academic path so that by high school the ones lacking in academic aptitude can begin working towards an apprenticeship in a trade and by graduation are employable at a decent wage. But all kids in high school should get heavy doses of civics and personal finance.
Another pipe dream would be for 2 years of compulsory service in the military or jobs corps for all 18 year olds. I think a good chunk of 18 year olds lack the maturity and discipline to be unleashed on their own in an unrestrictive college environment.

Add to this a "work" type class to teach them what is expected of employees!

Gil Dobie wrote:Big education needs to change from the top, with the CEO (Admin) pay. The local school budget here has 27% for teachers pay, the rest for admin and building expenses.

Just like the bidniz world, eh?

Get the Federal Government completely out of it. Well...except for that NAEP monitoring stuff. That's pretty cool data. But we need to find some way of doing that while eliminating the US Department of Education. Maybe we need a "US Department of Education just for Informational Monitoring Purposes." But get the Federal Government out of trying to control and direct things.

Tough project, I know. But that's what we need.

Some thoughts in no particular order -

1. Get the feds out of education. The only thing the feds should do is set some minimum standards so states like Mississippi actually teach above the 8th grade level. Other than that the feds need to get out of it. There are too many differences and one size does not fit all across all 50 states.
2. Get rid of the teacher unions. They hold back innovation and accountability.
3. Adjust teacher pay according to skills and subject matter. Why does a PE teacher make the same amount as a physics teacher? See #2.
4. Eliminate automatic pay steps for furthering education. Just because an English teacher got an MA does that really benefit the kids or the school district by making a better teacher? Maybe it does but the district should be allowed to determine that? See #2.
5. Teachers need to be held accountable. Using test scores isn't the only reason but they can be an indicator. And you can't use test scores for 1 or even 2 years. But using test scores for 5+ years can show patterns of poor teaching abilities. See #2.
6. Administrators need to be held accountable. If a school building is doing poorly that should fall back on the building principal and/or district supt.
7. As others have noted we need to stop telling every kid that they should go to get a 4 year degree. There are kids that will never have the skills or ability to do that. And there are others that don't want to do that. There is nothing wrong with a factory job or a skilled trade like a plumber or electrician. We need to start identifying those kids by middle school and teach them the skills they need to succeed. For example our local high school has an incredible vocational tech program. They have a pre-engineering program that starts with 9th graders. We also have CNC lathes, plasma cutter, and other factory type equipment so that kids learn how to run them, program the computers to make the machine do what they want, etc. The students even run a "business" making gaskets and other parts for a local manufacturing company. Not only are they learning a skill but they get paid for running their "business".
8. Increase in personal finance classes. Kids need to learn everything isn't free, how much credit card debt screws you, and how much student loan debt screws you when you major in something that has no money making ability.
9. Make it easier for qualified individuals to become teachers that are from outside the teaching profession. For example a person working as a research chemist might be able to become a chemistry teacher. See #2.
10. Reduce the amount of bureaucratic paperwork and the amount of time spent on it. Our district employs one person whose entire job is to do nothing but fill out forms for the state and federal govt. This doesn't even count the time the principals and supt. spend reviewing the reports filled out by this person. See #1.
11. Change the school calendar and move to year round school. We still use a school calendar that was designed 150+ years ago when kids needed the summer off to help their parents on the farm. The poor performing students lose way too much over the summer. Go year round with shorter breaks or go half days in the summer so kids can still play ball, go swimming, whatever.
12. Parents need to be more involved. This plays a role in #5 & #6. It can't be all on the teacher but studies prove that a good teacher can overcome a shitty home life.

There is probably more I should list but this would be a start.

Pwns wrote:1. Nuke No Child Left Behind...then stomp on the ashes.
2. Start reviving gifted programs that have been destroyed by NCLB
3. Abandon this ridiculous idea that every kid is college material...stop teaching kids you are a loser if you don't have a college education. Stop loaning massive amounts of money to college kids to get useless degrees.
4. Encourage more kids to look at vocational/technical school (won't happen because anyone who would propose it would be accused of rrrrrrrrrrrrrrracism!)
5. Make teacher pay based on a combination of supply-and-demand and merit. It is bats*** insane that middle school english teachers with cereal box graduate degrees can make $70,000 a year while an adjunct teaching calculus to engineering majors makes $25,000.

In short, BOTH sides of the "education war" need to be destroyed.

What the hell is a useless degree. I was taught that a degree states that you are an expert in your feild of study. NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!. Now, people think that if I have a degree I will make 75k a year. We forget that a formal Education is to better one's self, not to own a BMW 750.

HI54UNI wrote:Some thoughts in no particular order -

1. Get the feds out of education. The only thing the feds should do is set some minimum standards so states like Mississippi actually teach above the 8th grade level. Other than that the feds need to get out of it. There are too many differences and one size does not fit all across all 50 states.
2. Get rid of the teacher unions. They hold back innovation and accountability.
3. Adjust teacher pay according to skills and subject matter. Why does a PE teacher make the same amount as a physics teacher? See #2.
4. Eliminate automatic pay steps for furthering education. Just because an English teacher got an MA does that really benefit the kids or the school district by making a better teacher? Maybe it does but the district should be allowed to determine that? See #2.
5. Teachers need to be held accountable. Using test scores isn't the only reason but they can be an indicator. And you can't use test scores for 1 or even 2 years. But using test scores for 5+ years can show patterns of poor teaching abilities. See #2.
6. Administrators need to be held accountable. If a school building is doing poorly that should fall back on the building principal and/or district supt.
7. As others have noted we need to stop telling every kid that they should go to get a 4 year degree. There are kids that will never have the skills or ability to do that. And there are others that don't want to do that. There is nothing wrong with a factory job or a skilled trade like a plumber or electrician. We need to start identifying those kids by middle school and teach them the skills they need to succeed. For example our local high school has an incredible vocational tech program. They have a pre-engineering program that starts with 9th graders. We also have CNC lathes, plasma cutter, and other factory type equipment so that kids learn how to run them, program the computers to make the machine do what they want, etc. The students even run a "business" making gaskets and other parts for a local manufacturing company. Not only are they learning a skill but they get paid for running their "business".
8. Increase in personal finance classes. Kids need to learn everything isn't free, how much credit card debt screws you, and how much student loan debt screws you when you major in something that has no money making ability.
9. Make it easier for qualified individuals to become teachers that are from outside the teaching profession. For example a person working as a research chemist might be able to become a chemistry teacher. See #2.
10. Reduce the amount of bureaucratic paperwork and the amount of time spent on it. Our district employs one person whose entire job is to do nothing but fill out forms for the state and federal govt. This doesn't even count the time the principals and supt. spend reviewing the reports filled out by this person. See #1.
11. Change the school calendar and move to year round school. We still use a school calendar that was designed 150+ years ago when kids needed the summer off to help their parents on the farm. The poor performing students lose way too much over the summer. Go year round with shorter breaks or go half days in the summer so kids can still play ball, go swimming, whatever.
12. Parents need to be more involved. This plays a role in #5 & #6. It can't be all on the teacher but studies prove that a good teacher can overcome a shitty home life.

There is probably more I should list but this would be a start.

This will never happen!!!!!!!! Too much like right!!!!!!!

HI54UNI wrote:Some thoughts in no particular order -

1. Get the feds out of education. The only thing the feds should do is set some minimum standards so states like Mississippi actually teach above the 8th grade level. Other than that the feds need to get out of it. There are too many differences and one size does not fit all across all 50 states.
2. Get rid of the teacher unions. They hold back innovation and accountability.
3. Adjust teacher pay according to skills and subject matter. Why does a PE teacher make the same amount as a physics teacher? See #2.
4. Eliminate automatic pay steps for furthering education. Just because an English teacher got an MA does that really benefit the kids or the school district by making a better teacher? Maybe it does but the district should be allowed to determine that? See #2.
5. Teachers need to be held accountable. Using test scores isn't the only reason but they can be an indicator. And you can't use test scores for 1 or even 2 years. But using test scores for 5+ years can show patterns of poor teaching abilities. See #2.
6. Administrators need to be held accountable. If a school building is doing poorly that should fall back on the building principal and/or district supt.
7. As others have noted we need to stop telling every kid that they should go to get a 4 year degree. There are kids that will never have the skills or ability to do that. And there are others that don't want to do that. There is nothing wrong with a factory job or a skilled trade like a plumber or electrician. We need to start identifying those kids by middle school and teach them the skills they need to succeed. For example our local high school has an incredible vocational tech program. They have a pre-engineering program that starts with 9th graders. We also have CNC lathes, plasma cutter, and other factory type equipment so that kids learn how to run them, program the computers to make the machine do what they want, etc. The students even run a "business" making gaskets and other parts for a local manufacturing company. Not only are they learning a skill but they get paid for running their "business".
8. Increase in personal finance classes. Kids need to learn everything isn't free, how much credit card debt screws you, and how much student loan debt screws you when you major in something that has no money making ability.
9. Make it easier for qualified individuals to become teachers that are from outside the teaching profession. For example a person working as a research chemist might be able to become a chemistry teacher. See #2.
10. Reduce the amount of bureaucratic paperwork and the amount of time spent on it. Our district employs one person whose entire job is to do nothing but fill out forms for the state and federal govt. This doesn't even count the time the principals and supt. spend reviewing the reports filled out by this person. See #1.
11. Change the school calendar and move to year round school. We still use a school calendar that was designed 150+ years ago when kids needed the summer off to help their parents on the farm. The poor performing students lose way too much over the summer. Go year round with shorter breaks or go half days in the summer so kids can still play ball, go swimming, whatever.
12. Parents need to be more involved. This plays a role in #5 & #6. It can't be all on the teacher but studies prove that a good teacher can overcome a shitty home life.

There is probably more I should list but this would be a start.

Plenty of good points here.

A few things really annoy me.

1.) Teachers- Most teachers are bright and dedicated, but some are terrible. Schools need the flexibility to get rid of crappy teachers. I also think the "masters" degrees held by many teachers are jokes. In PA many small crappy private schools have turned into de facto diploma mills for teachers. They take classes so easy a middle schooler would blush, yet get large increases in pay (in some cases) for said worthless degrees. Basically pay the good teachers a good wage, we need to have quality teachers, and get rid of the dopes.
2) College tracking. As has been mentioned, I scream when Obama talks about how everyone should go to college. Everyone with the ability to go to college should have a chance, but many should not. The academic quality of some schools and majors is extremely poor, and the earned degree is worthless. It leaves the young person with loans and wasted years. More kids should be pushed to the trades if it is the best fit. Also if a kid doesn't want to learn or continues to be a disruption send them packing. Too many kids, even at good schools, disrupt their classmates and take away time from teaching. Put them all in special classes or schools, and allow the kids who want to learn do so.
3) Stop teaching to a test. Many school districts, especially bad ones, only care about how kids do on standardized tests and spend the whole school year teaching to these tests. It may show some short term improvment on a test, but the kids are not getting an education.

mrklean wrote:

Pwns wrote:1. Nuke No Child Left Behind...then stomp on the ashes.
2. Start reviving gifted programs that have been destroyed by NCLB
3. Abandon this ridiculous idea that every kid is college material...stop teaching kids you are a loser if you don't have a college education. Stop loaning massive amounts of money to college kids to get useless degrees.
4. Encourage more kids to look at vocational/technical school (won't happen because anyone who would propose it would be accused of rrrrrrrrrrrrrrracism!)
5. Make teacher pay based on a combination of supply-and-demand and merit. It is bats*** insane that middle school english teachers with cereal box graduate degrees can make $70,000 a year while an adjunct teaching calculus to engineering majors makes $25,000.

In short, BOTH sides of the "education war" need to be destroyed.

What the hell is a useless degree. I was taught that a degree states that you are an expert in your feild of study. NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!. Now, people think that if I have a degree I will make 75k a year. We forget that a formal Education is to better one's self, not to own a BMW 750.

Understand your point 100%, but most people do expect to see some economic benefit from attending college. About a million people go to school for Sports Management. Very few end up working for sports team in any decent capacity, but every dope with a Sports Management degree from West Chester thinks they should be the next GM of the Phillies. If kids have a passion and want to pursue a career in a narrow field I get that, but they need to understand realities.

Also as we all know many employers dont care if you have a specific degree, but that you have one period. Having a degree is a start, but as we all know the real work starts when you get that first "real" job.

mrklean wrote:

Pwns wrote:1. Nuke No Child Left Behind...then stomp on the ashes.
2. Start reviving gifted programs that have been destroyed by NCLB
3. Abandon this ridiculous idea that every kid is college material...stop teaching kids you are a loser if you don't have a college education. Stop loaning massive amounts of money to college kids to get useless degrees.
4. Encourage more kids to look at vocational/technical school (won't happen because anyone who would propose it would be accused of rrrrrrrrrrrrrrracism!)
5. Make teacher pay based on a combination of supply-and-demand and merit. It is bats*** insane that middle school english teachers with cereal box graduate degrees can make $70,000 a year while an adjunct teaching calculus to engineering majors makes $25,000.

In short, BOTH sides of the "education war" need to be destroyed.

What the hell is a useless degree. I was taught that a degree states that you are an expert in your feild of study. NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!. Now, people think that if I have a degree I will make 75k a year. We forget that a formal Education is to better one's self, not to own a BMW 750.

A useless degree is one that has no economic value. It's OK to have a passion but should you go into big debt for your passion unless you are already independently wealthy? A while back I read an article about student loan debt. They interviewed a woman who was complaining because she had $100,000+ in student loan debt. She majored in cello. She had a job with an orchestra that paid $11,000 a year. I can't feel sorry for somebody that fucking stupid. And what's worse is I'm afraid the idiot in the White House is going to make a move to have the govt eat all that student loan debt.

HI54UNI wrote:

mrklean wrote:
What the hell is a useless degree. I was taught that a degree states that you are an expert in your feild of study. NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!. Now, people think that if I have a degree I will make 75k a year. We forget that a formal Education is to better one's self, not to own a BMW 750.

A useless degree is one that has no economic value. It's OK to have a passion but should you go into big debt for your passion unless you are already independently wealthy? A while back I read an article about student loan debt. They interviewed a woman who was complaining because she had $100,000+ in student loan debt. She majored in cello. She had a job with an orchestra that paid $11,000 a year. I can't feel sorry for somebody that **** stupid. And what's worse is I'm afraid the idiot in the White House is going to make a move to have the govt eat all that student loan debt.

I am in the middle here a bit. No degree is truly useless as it shows potential employers that you have a certain level of mental ability, and have the ability to complete a goal. However don't complain when finding a job is a bit more difficult with a 2.1 GPA and a recreation degree from a random school.

Franks Tanks wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:
A useless degree is one that has no economic value. It's OK to have a passion but should you go into big debt for your passion unless you are already independently wealthy? A while back I read an article about student loan debt. They interviewed a woman who was complaining because she had $100,000+ in student loan debt. She majored in cello. She had a job with an orchestra that paid $11,000 a year. I can't feel sorry for somebody that **** stupid. And what's worse is I'm afraid the idiot in the White House is going to make a move to have the govt eat all that student loan debt.

I am in the middle here a bit. No degree is truly useless as it shows potential employers that you have a certain level of mental ability, and have the ability to complete a goal. However don't complain when finding a job is a bit more difficult with a 2.1 GPA and a recreation degree from a random school.

The relative value of a BA (or BS) has certainly dropped since my parents went to school. It seems like most employers look at it as a bare minimum, much like a high school diploma used to be viewed.

Well, educations, degrees, and titles aside, what I can't figure is that those with these upper level degrees/educations will walk onto a car lot, look at a sticker price and ask the salesperson how much a month is that, and if it is cheaper to lease.

Worse than that, the salesperson probably has much less high powered education than his client.

Notice all the atheist/secular nations on the good end.

Religion is a cancer on a society.

HI54UNI wrote:Some thoughts in no particular order -

1. Get the feds out of education. The only thing the feds should do is set some minimum standards so states like Mississippi actually teach above the 8th grade level. Other than that the feds need to get out of it. There are too many differences and one size does not fit all across all 50 states.
2. Get rid of the teacher unions. They hold back innovation and accountability.
3. Adjust teacher pay according to skills and subject matter. Why does a PE teacher make the same amount as a physics teacher? See #2.
4. Eliminate automatic pay steps for furthering education. Just because an English teacher got an MA does that really benefit the kids or the school district by making a better teacher? Maybe it does but the district should be allowed to determine that? See #2.
5. Teachers need to be held accountable. Using test scores isn't the only reason but they can be an indicator. And you can't use test scores for 1 or even 2 years. But using test scores for 5+ years can show patterns of poor teaching abilities. See #2.
6. Administrators need to be held accountable. If a school building is doing poorly that should fall back on the building principal and/or district supt.
7. As others have noted we need to stop telling every kid that they should go to get a 4 year degree. There are kids that will never have the skills or ability to do that. And there are others that don't want to do that. There is nothing wrong with a factory job or a skilled trade like a plumber or electrician. We need to start identifying those kids by middle school and teach them the skills they need to succeed. For example our local high school has an incredible vocational tech program. They have a pre-engineering program that starts with 9th graders. We also have CNC lathes, plasma cutter, and other factory type equipment so that kids learn how to run them, program the computers to make the machine do what they want, etc. The students even run a "business" making gaskets and other parts for a local manufacturing company. Not only are they learning a skill but they get paid for running their "business".
8. Increase in personal finance classes. Kids need to learn everything isn't free, how much credit card debt screws you, and how much student loan debt screws you when you major in something that has no money making ability.
9. Make it easier for qualified individuals to become teachers that are from outside the teaching profession. For example a person working as a research chemist might be able to become a chemistry teacher. See #2.
10. Reduce the amount of bureaucratic paperwork and the amount of time spent on it. Our district employs one person whose entire job is to do nothing but fill out forms for the state and federal govt. This doesn't even count the time the principals and supt. spend reviewing the reports filled out by this person. See #1.
11. Change the school calendar and move to year round school. We still use a school calendar that was designed 150+ years ago when kids needed the summer off to help their parents on the farm. The poor performing students lose way too much over the summer. Go year round with shorter breaks or go half days in the summer so kids can still play ball, go swimming, whatever.
12. Parents need to be more involved. This plays a role in #5 & #6. It can't be all on the teacher but studies prove that a good teacher can overcome a shitty home life.

There is probably more I should list but this would be a start.

One more See #2. Chicago teachers on strike.

HI54UNI wrote:
A useless degree is one that has no economic value. It's OK to have a passion but should you go into big debt for your passion unless you are already independently wealthy? A while back I read an article about student loan debt. They interviewed a woman who was complaining because she had $100,000+ in student loan debt. She majored in cello. She had a job with an orchestra that paid $11,000 a year. I can't feel sorry for somebody that fucking stupid. And what's worse is I'm afraid the idiot in the White House is going to make a move to have the govt eat all that student loan debt.

It's fascinating to watch ain't it...
It's like a slo-mo reel of a gruesome car accident

For-profit colleges sucking in students who qualify for government-subsidized loans (but probably can't get into most traditional schools) is also something that needs a serious looking-at. Those places are turning into bona fide cash cows, and taxpayers are bankrolling a large chunk of the gravy.

These days college degrees are like mortgages. You're upside down the minute you take them out because the product is grossly overvalued.

TBH, you see these schools like ITT Tech advertising on TV, and I bet it would take just a little tweaking for them to provide computer science and engineering classes on par with 90% if the accredited 4 year universities out there, at half the price.

When my daughters are old enough to start considering college, hopefully trade schools will be back on the rise so they have that option. Would love to have a shipbuilder or lofter/drafter in the family to take care of me when I'm a crotchety old fart and my Social Security payments are just 25 bucks a month.

Franks Tanks wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:
A useless degree is one that has no economic value. It's OK to have a passion but should you go into big debt for your passion unless you are already independently wealthy? A while back I read an article about student loan debt. They interviewed a woman who was complaining because she had $100,000+ in student loan debt. She majored in cello. She had a job with an orchestra that paid $11,000 a year. I can't feel sorry for somebody that **** stupid. And what's worse is I'm afraid the idiot in the White House is going to make a move to have the govt eat all that student loan debt.

I am in the middle here a bit. No degree is truly useless as it shows potential employers that you have a certain level of mental ability, and have the ability to complete a goal. However don't complain when finding a job is a bit more difficult with a 2.1 GPA and a recreation degree from a random school.

Well having a rec degree from a random and directional university' I take great umbrage with that statement.

Recreation professionals manage multi-million dollar programs that keep your snot nosed kids happy and healthy in youth sports, take your elderly parents on trips to the Indian casino so that you don't have to deal with them, expertly guide your white water float down a river, coordinate the on-board entertainment on your carribean cruise etc.

There's more to life than say accounting, lawyering, mortgages, or engineering. The world needs court jesters too. imagine how miserable life would be if it consisted only of the 89hens, ivytalks, Gannons, and chizzangs of the world.

kalm wrote:

Franks Tanks wrote:
I am in the middle here a bit. No degree is truly useless as it shows potential employers that you have a certain level of mental ability, and have the ability to complete a goal. However don't complain when finding a job is a bit more difficult with a 2.1 GPA and a recreation degree from a random school.

Well having a rec degree from a random and directional university' I take great umbrage with that statement.

Recreation professionals manage multi-million dollar programs that keep your snot nosed kids happy and healthy in youth sports, take your elderly parents on trips to the Indian casino so that you don't have to deal with them, expertly guide your white water float down a river, coordinate the on-board entertainment on your carribean cruise etc.

There's more to life than say accounting, lawyering, mortgages, or engineering. The world needs court jesters too. imagine how miserable life would be if it consisted only of the 89hens, ivytalks, Gannons, and chizzangs of the world.

I'm glad you like your job-- I sure don't. It was just an example of a profession that may have difficult job prospects and low pay (although I am sure many in your profession make a good wage). Don't take offense.