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He was the spitting image of the killer, had the same first name and was near the scene of the crime at the fateful hour: Carlos DeLuna paid the ultimate price and was executed in place of someone else in Texas in 1989, a report out Tuesday found.

Even "all the relatives of both Carloses mistook them," and DeLuna was sentenced to death and executed based only on eyewitness accounts despite a range of signs he was not a guilty man, said law professor James Liebman.

Liebman and five of his students at Columbia School of Law spent almost five years poring over details of a case that he says is "emblematic" of legal system failure.

DeLuna, 27, was put to death after "a very incomplete investigation. No question that the investigation is a failure," Liebman said.

The report's authors found "numerous missteps, missed clues and missed opportunities that let authorities prosecute Carlos DeLuna for the crime of murder, despite evidence not only that he did not commit the crime but that another individual, Carlos Hernandez, did," the 780-page investigation found.
http://news.yahoo.com/wrong-man-execute ... 25159.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shameful - heads need to roll.

Just another reason we need to join the rest of the civilized world and abolish it.

This is why I oppose the death penalty...and I doubt it is the first time...

Col Hogan wrote:This is why I oppose the death penalty...and I doubt it is the first time...

There's a good Frontline on another guy in Texas who was executed for allegedly burning down his house with his kids inside-turned out it was an electrical fire...

Col Hogan wrote:This is why I oppose the death penalty...and I doubt it is the first time...

Yup

This isn't the death penalty's fault. It's the shoddy police work's fault. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

AZGrizFan wrote:This isn't the death penalty's fault. It's the shoddy police work's fault. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Fair enough, but it's not like we'll ever eradicate incompetent police or fire investigators, and I think you have to give that serious consideration with something as irreversible as capital punishment.

Grizalltheway wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:This isn't the death penalty's fault. It's the shoddy police work's fault. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Fair enough, but it's not like we'll ever eradicate ncompetent police or fire investigators, and I think you have to give that serious consideration with something as irreversible as capital punishment.

I've stated my position before. The death penalty should be reserved for cases of individuals caught red handed.

LIke Jerry Sandusky.

dbackjon wrote:He was the spitting image of the killer, had the same first name and was near the scene of the crime at the fateful hour: Carlos DeLuna paid the ultimate price and was executed in place of someone else in Texas in 1989, a report out Tuesday found.

Even "all the relatives of both Carloses mistook them," and DeLuna was sentenced to death and executed based only on eyewitness accounts despite a range of signs he was not a guilty man, said law professor James Liebman.

Liebman and five of his students at Columbia School of Law spent almost five years poring over details of a case that he says is "emblematic" of legal system failure.

DeLuna, 27, was put to death after "a very incomplete investigation. No question that the investigation is a failure," Liebman said.

The report's authors found "numerous missteps, missed clues and missed opportunities that let authorities prosecute Carlos DeLuna for the crime of murder, despite evidence not only that he did not commit the crime but that another individual, Carlos Hernandez, did," the 780-page investigation found.
http://news.yahoo.com/wrong-man-execute ... 25159.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"They" all look the same in Texas..

AZGrizFan wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote: Fair enough, but it's not like we'll ever eradicate ncompetent police or fire investigators, and I think you have to give that serious consideration with something as irreversible as capital punishment.

I've stated my position before. The death penalty should be reserved for cases of individuals caught red handed.

LIke Jerry Sandusky.

Or the Grizz Rapist.

Grizalltheway wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:This isn't the death penalty's fault. It's the shoddy police work's fault. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Fair enough, but it's not like we'll ever eradicate incompetent police or fire investigators, and I think you have to give that serious consideration with something as irreversible as capital punishment.

I'm with the Colonel on this one.

But if states are going to keep the death penalty they need to change the standard of proof from beyond a reasonable doubt to beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you're going to put someone to death, you better be damn sure they're guilty.

And from what I've read, eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable so they're going to need more than that.

UNI88 wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote: Fair enough, but it's not like we'll ever eradicate incompetent police or fire investigators, and I think you have to give that serious consideration with something as irreversible as capital punishment.

I'm with the Colonel on this one.

But if states are going to keep the death penalty they need to change the standard of proof from beyond a reasonable doubt to beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you're going to put someone to death, you better be damn sure they're guilty.

And from what I've read, eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable so they're going to need more than that.

THey need the confession, smoking gun, etc....

We all saw My Cousin Vinny, we know how witness' get confused.

Shit happens.

AZGrizFan wrote:This isn't the death penalty's fault. It's the shoddy police work's fault. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Spot on. We shouldn't stop drinking beer just because one company makes Bud Light.

Both these gentlemen were real pieces of work. And the "wrong" man couldn't have acted more guilty if he tried, both in the vicinity of the crime scene and later in court.

But.

This was a complete clusterfuck by the authorities, from the initial crime-scene investigation to the detective work to the trial (both by the prosecution and the public defenders) to the follow-up during the appeals process. And in the end there's a pretty monstrously high pile of evidence, including the killer's own admission, pointing to the wrong man being executed.

If you're going to execute someone for a crime, you have to be 100% sure that they committed it.

Col Hogan wrote:This is why I oppose the death penalty...and I doubt it is the first time...

Agree Col

I support the death penalty for folks like our little Wikileaks twinkie.


Also Sodomy

CitadelGrad wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
I've stated my position before. The death penalty should be reserved for cases of individuals caught red handed.

LIke Jerry Sandusky.

Or the Grizz Rapist.

D1B wrote:

CitadelGrad wrote:
Or the Grizz Rapist.

Feel free to laugh. He's talking about the butt-raping UNI took at the hands of the Griz in the playoffs.

AZGrizFan wrote:

D1B wrote:

Feel free to laugh. He's talking about the butt-raping UNI took at the hands of the Griz in the playoffs.

I thought the players were shaking from the cold weather.

The number of cases that could be considered "beyond a shadow of a doubt" are too small to keep capital punishment going. Rather than having things like this happen, which certainly happen every day, we should just abolish capital punishment and reinstitute life sentences of hard labor. We got soft when we stopped making prisoners senselessly chip away at really big boulders while wearing leg irons. Doing that everyday for 80 years is a good enough punishment for pretty much anything in my book.

GannonFan wrote:The number of cases that could be considered "beyond a shadow of a doubt" are too small to keep capital punishment going. Rather than having things like this happen, which certainly happen every day, we should just abolish capital punishment and reinstitute life sentences of hard labor. We got soft when we stopped making prisoners senselessly chip away at really big boulders while wearing leg irons. Doing that everyday for 80 years is a good enough punishment for pretty much anything in my book.

Disagree. What needs to go away is the 20 years of appeals on "beyond a shadow of a doubt" cases. For example, the Elizabeth Smart kidnappers. Find them guilty (caught redhanded), and put them out of everyone's misery. Immediately. Or the three guys who broke out of an Arizona prison a couple years ago and killed a New Mexico elderly couple in their camper while on a murderous rampage. Bust a cap in all three of them immediately.

We've made actually performing capital punishment too cost prohibative. We should model our system after Singapore's.

AZGrizFan wrote: Disagree. What needs to go away is the 20 years of appeals on "beyond a shadow of a doubt" cases. For example, the Elizabeth Smart kidnappers. Find them guilty (caught redhanded), and put them out of everyone's misery. Immediately. Or the three guys who broke out of an Arizona prison a couple years ago and killed a New Mexico elderly couple in their camper while on a murderous rampage. Bust a cap in all three of them immediately.

We've made actually performing capital punishment too cost prohibative. We should model our system after Singapore's.

If it was one of your kids that got mistakenly convicted, would you feel the same way?

Gil Dobie wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote: Disagree. What needs to go away is the 20 years of appeals on "beyond a shadow of a doubt" cases. For example, the Elizabeth Smart kidnappers. Find them guilty (caught redhanded), and put them out of everyone's misery. Immediately. Or the three guys who broke out of an Arizona prison a couple years ago and killed a New Mexico elderly couple in their camper while on a murderous rampage. Bust a cap in all three of them immediately.

We've made actually performing capital punishment too cost prohibative. We should model our system after Singapore's.

If it was one of your kids that got mistakenly convicted, would you feel the same way?

Read the thread Gil, and then get back to me.