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Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:27 am
by kalm
I think I'm a Jeffersonian Conservative.
“The only security of all is in a free press.” Thomas Jefferson wrote these words to the Marquis de Lafayette at the age of 80. The reason Jefferson lauded a free press was that he wished, in tense political times, for the U.S. to function as a deliberative democracy, in which an increasingly better-educated citizenry monitored the policy decisions of its elected representatives and judged whether or not they deserved to remain in office.
A better-educated citizenry. That was Jefferson’s mantra, and it should be ours, too. Republicans in Congress have claimed Jefferson as their man, time and again quoting him as a champion of small government. One of their favorites lines is, “If it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our Constitution,” it would be “taking from the Federal Government the power of borrowing.” The Jefferson they do not pay attention to is the one whose lifelong dream was a well-funded public education system — the Jefferson who spent his post-presidential retirement years creating a beautiful public university in Charlottesville, Virginia. Jefferson asked no less a figure than U.S. Attorney General William Wirt, notably the son of a Maryland tavern-keeper, to be its president. He understand that personal growth and national strength were best served by lifting up ordinary folks.......
Those of our time who would sacrifice opportunity for the young and shortchange students of all ages ought to heed the thought Jefferson expressed next. Taken out of context, or left to stand alone, it is a rallying cry for those who fear federal encroachment: “There is no safe deposit [for liberty] but with the people themselves,” he proclaimed. But the rest of his comment expresses the best Jefferson we know, the education champion. Liberty is never safe, he said, unless people possessed knowledge to make informed political choices; for, “where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe.”
Conservatives will certainly not appreciate one theory Jefferson put forward in the letter to Lafayette. He claimed that partisan ideologies were fixed in nature. Those of his day whom he labeled “Tory” or “aristocrat,” who wished to restrain the democratic rabble and keep the wealthy in charge, were, for Jefferson, “sickly, weakly, timid men” whose nerves could not withstand social change. Those who subscribed to his own, relatively liberal and open-minded belief in the educability of all (white) men were, he wrote, a “healthy, strong and bold” political interest.
Jefferson’s first priority was the intellectual elevation of those who were to succeed the founding generation — those who would sustain the values of the Revolution. He opposed all profligate spending, but he championed education spending. And he embraced the free press as the republic’s clearinghouse of ideas and the instrument through which political and ethical progress was insured.
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Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:56 am
by Col Hogan
I too am for a well funded education system...and like Jefferson support a small federal government...
Education is not a federal responsibility...our Founding Fathers left it up to the states...some have spent lots and well on education and reap the benefits while others have not and pay the price...
This "progressive" belief that we should have a federal standard for education hurts those states that wish to spend and reap the benefits of a good education system since those taxpayers are footing the bill for both their own education system and subsidizing states that don't meet a standard levied by some federal bureaucrat...
I chose to live where I do because the education system is good...teachers get a good pay and children get a good education...why should I subsidize someone in Mississippi when their citizens elect politicians that don't support education...or worse yet, know the Feds will pay the bill with money gathered from other states...
Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:50 pm
by Ibanez
I'm a huge fan of POTUS #3. The man used reason and logic in his authoring of our most important documents and maintained pure beliefs upon which our country was founded.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:02 pm
by JohnStOnge
He's clearly talking about State funding of education. I seriously doubt that he'd have been in favor of something like the US Department of Education. I say that even though I do like messing with the statistics the US Department of Education produces.
But: Thomas Jefferson would not have wanted the Federal government to be managing education. He'd have considered education the purview of the States.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:05 pm
by kalm
JohnStOnge wrote:He's clearly talking about State funding of education. I seriously doubt that he'd have been in favor of something like the US Department of Education. I say that even though I do like messing with the statistics the US Department of Education produces.
But: Thomas Jefferson would not have wanted the Federal government to be managing education. He'd have considered education the purview of the States.
Sure, but he was still clearly a proponent of educating the masses and its importance relating to liberty.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:23 am
by 89Hen
Col Hogan wrote:I too am for a well funded education system...
I'd like to hear different people's definition of what "well funded" is. Our Gov (effin asshole) and County Exec think well funded means tearing down perfectly fine elementary schools and building new $45M facilities. I count 8 schools within 5-6 miles of my house that have been razed and rebuilt. I choose to send my kids to parochial schools and I have no problem paying my share of taxes to have good county schools, but this is complete bullshit. Mrs89 works for the County... not only hasn't she gotten a raise in three years, she's had furloughs two of the last three, meaning a pay cut. Maryland is $38B in the hole and a big chunk of that is from my county.
Sorry, just had to vent as I heard this morning our Gov wants to increase taxes my taxes because I'm wealthy.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:37 am
by GannonFan
Well, on two things - Jefferson's letters also point to a "better educated populace" in terms not just related to schooling and education but in the scope of a free press and the ability of that press to report on what government is actually doing. While we are never perfect in that regard, we are much better off today than we've been at various times throughout our history - we know a great deal of what government does and how it does it. As with regards to the educating of the masses in the strictness definition of that, that is, in terms of formal schooling, Jefferson was and would be today a very strong proponent of the robustness of the education. Simply trying to get bachelors degrees in the hands of as many people as possible, which is the basic premise of what we are doing today, was never his goal - he did have a fairly elevated sense of what constituted proper education and learning and would likely frown upon many of the schools and courses that are out there today that could constitute an education.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:20 am
by LeadBolt
Jefferson listed "Founder of the University of Virginia, author of the Declaration of Independence and author of the Virginia Act of Religious Freedom" as his accomplishments on his tombstone, but did not mention President of the United States.
Given his other philosophies, I believe he would be aghast at how government of the United States has changed from a Federal System to a National Government that contains, among other things a Department of Education.
To echo what GF stated, TJ was about education, not degrees nor indoctrination, and he was mostly self taught through taking responsibility for his own education in the classics and sciences, after being expelled from WIlliam & Mary...
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:40 am
by UNI88
kalm wrote:JohnStOnge wrote:He's clearly talking about State funding of education. I seriously doubt that he'd have been in favor of something like the US Department of Education. I say that even though I do like messing with the statistics the US Department of Education produces.
But: Thomas Jefferson would not have wanted the Federal government to be managing education. He'd have considered education the purview of the States.
Sure, but he was still clearly a proponent of educating the masses and its importance relating to liberty.
I'm a huge fan of TJ's and I also believe that education is just as or more important to this nation's future than infrastructure so I have to ask ...
What is better?
- Having one system that if it fails, fails everyone?
- Or having up to 50 systems where those in charge of failing systems can see what is working in other systems and copy it?
The reality is that a federal educational system is going to be a giant bureaucracy whose end result is likely to be mediocrity. A state based system will allow for more innovation and better education in the long run. Will there be kids who have less access to quality education than others? Yes. And those kids parents will be free to move to states with better education and their former states will be forced to reform their systems of lose tax revenue.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:36 am
by AZGrizFan
UNI88 wrote:kalm wrote:
Sure, but he was still clearly a proponent of educating the masses and its importance relating to liberty.
I'm a huge fan of TJ's and I also believe that education is just as or more important to this nation's future than infrastructure so I have to ask ...
What is better?
- Having one system that if it fails, fails everyone?
- Or having up to 50 systems where those in charge of failing systems can see what is working in other systems and copy it?
The reality is that a federal educational system is going to be a giant bureaucracy whose end result is likely to be mediocrity. A state based system will allow for more innovation and better education in the long run. Will there be kids who have less access to quality education than others? Yes. And those kids parents will be free to move to states with better education and their former states will be forced to reform their systems of lose tax revenue.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:34 pm
by kalm
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:32 pm
by UNI88
I typed the letters but I can't take credit for the concept. A discussion with the Colonel a year or more ago brought me to this conclusion and he deserves the credit.
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:21 pm
by D1B
UNI88 wrote:kalm wrote:
+2
I typed the letters but I can't take credit for the concept. A discussion with the Colonel a year or more ago brought me to this conclusion and he deserves the credit.
Is this the same Colonel Dipshit that thinks every man, woman and child should be carrying a firearm?
Re: Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 am
by HI54UNI
UNI88 wrote:kalm wrote:
Sure, but he was still clearly a proponent of educating the masses and its importance relating to liberty.
I'm a huge fan of TJ's and I also believe that education is just as or more important to this nation's future than infrastructure so I have to ask ...
What is better?
- Having one system that if it fails, fails everyone?
- Or having up to 50 systems where those in charge of failing systems can see what is working in other systems and copy it?
The reality is that a federal educational system is going to be a giant bureaucracy whose end result is likely to be mediocrity. A state based system will allow for more innovation and better education in the long run. Will there be kids who have less access to quality education than others? Yes. And those kids parents will be free to move to states with better education and their former states will be forced to reform their systems of lose tax revenue.
Great post.
What a wonderful world it would be if the feds would get out of education.
Jefferson and an Educated Public
Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:39 pm
by CID1990
Who here thinks Jefferson wasn't a proponent of a weak central government and, by proxy, a proponent of States' rights?
Also Sodomy