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The real story of these GOP debates has to be the shocking, but ultimately revealing and very telling behavior of their audiences... cheering executions, applauding the hypothetical death of an uninsured man, and now booing an active duty United States Marine for the simple fact that he is gay...

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... ebate.html

10.18 pm. Santorum claims bizarrely that repealing DADT means permission for sexual activity for gays in the military. This is a lie. The same rules of sexual misconduct apply to gays and straights alike. And a gay servicemember is booed by this foul crowd.

Just once I'd like to see a candidate from the right say something to the effect of "Seriously? This country is ass deep in debt, economy in a massive recession, home prices continue to plummet, we're in three wars simultaneously and unemployment continues to hover above 9% and D.C. is in political gridlock and THIS is what we're supposed to worry about?"

AZGrizFan wrote:Just once I'd like to see a candidate from the right say something to the effect of "Seriously? This country is ass deep in debt, economy in a massive recession, home prices continue to plummet, we're in three wars simultaneously and unemployment continues to hover above 9% and D.C. is in political gridlock and THIS is what we're supposed to worry about?"

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Show some damned leadership... It could have been as simple and as classy as "Hey - that's enough, that young man is serving our country and for that he has earned your respect and support" - done and done - and while some assholes would be pissy about it, most voters would applaud it...

more than that, did you SEE that Marine? Dude was yoked... wonder how many of those booing would have had the grapes to act like that to his face...

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:Just once I'd like to see a candidate from the right say something to the effect of "Seriously? This country is ass deep in debt, economy in a massive recession, home prices continue to plummet, we're in three wars simultaneously and unemployment continues to hover above 9% and D.C. is in political gridlock and THIS is what we're supposed to worry about?"

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Show some damned leadership... It could have been as simple and as classy as "Hey - that's enough, that young man is serving our country and for that he has earned your respect and support" - done and done - and while some assholes would be pissy about it, most voters would applaud it...

more than that, did you SEE that Marine? Dude was yoked... wonder how many of those booing would have had the grapes to act like that to his face...

It's questions like THESE that piss off those of us (and we are VAST in number) who couldn't care less about the vast majority of the "social" issues they (the candidates AND the moderators) seem so fucking fixated on. Fix the damned COUNTRY and leave the morality to the individual. DADT was repealed. Good. It was the right decision. Move on to the ACTUAL issues.

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Show some damned leadership... It could have been as simple and as classy as "Hey - that's enough, that young man is serving our country and for that he has earned your respect and support" - done and done - and while some assholes would be pissy about it, most voters would applaud it...

more than that, did you SEE that Marine? Dude was yoked... wonder how many of those booing would have had the grapes to act like that to his face...

It's questions like THESE that piss off those of us (and we are VAST in number) who couldn't care less about the vast majority of the "social" issues they (the candidates AND the moderators) seem so fucking fixated on. Fix the damned COUNTRY and leave the morality to the individual. DADT was repealed. Good. It was the right decision. Move on to the ACTUAL issues.

for pretty much every post in this thread so far.

Perry actually looked drugged tonight.

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Show some damned leadership... It could have been as simple and as classy as "Hey - that's enough, that young man is serving our country and for that he has earned your respect and support" - done and done - and while some assholes would be pissy about it, most voters would applaud it...

more than that, did you SEE that Marine? Dude was yoked... wonder how many of those booing would have had the grapes to act like that to his face...

It's questions like THESE that piss off those of us (and we are VAST in number) who couldn't care less about the vast majority of the "social" issues they (the candidates AND the moderators) seem so fucking fixated on. Fix the damned COUNTRY and leave the morality to the individual. DADT was repealed. Good. It was the right decision. Move on to the ACTUAL issues.

But you aren't really the majority in the GOP... and even if there are a lot of people who think like you (and I know there are) - your demographic doesn't vote nearly as consistently as the Christianists... (who comprise a VERY big part of the base - and are crossed at great peril)

While it might be what they ought to do in terms of the right damn thing... politically, strategically and especially tactically... they can't - for fear of incurring the wrath.

AZGrizFan wrote:Perry actually looked drugged tonight.

uh huh. not a good showing - Romney looked strong, especially by comparison...

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Show some damned leadership... It could have been as simple and as classy as "Hey - that's enough, that young man is serving our country and for that he has earned your respect and support" - done and done - and while some assholes would be pissy about it, most voters would applaud it...

more than that, did you SEE that Marine? Dude was yoked... wonder how many of those booing would have had the grapes to act like that to his face...

It's questions like THESE that piss off those of us (and we are VAST in number) who couldn't care less about the vast majority of the "social" issues they (the candidates AND the moderators) seem so fucking fixated on. Fix the damned COUNTRY and leave the morality to the individual. DADT was repealed. Good. It was the right decision. Move on to the ACTUAL issues.

Z, now you know what it's like to be a reasonable NDSU fan on this board, eh TTBF?

"GOP debate audience boos active duty Marine"

Did you watch the debate? Two men booed. Those two are idiots, but let's not portray this as the audience booed.

89Hen wrote:"GOP debate audience boos active duty Marine"

Did you watch the debate? Two men booed. Those two are idiots, but let's not portray this as the audience booed.

And not a single candidate rebuked them for doing so.

[youtube][/youtube]

5:17 has the pertinent informaiton

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
It's questions like THESE that piss off those of us (and we are VAST in number) who couldn't care less about the vast majority of the "social" issues they (the candidates AND the moderators) seem so **** fixated on. Fix the damned COUNTRY and leave the morality to the individual. DADT was repealed. Good. It was the right decision. Move on to the ACTUAL issues.

But you aren't really the majority in the GOP... and even if there are a lot of people who think like you (and I know there are) - your demographic doesn't vote nearly as consistently as the Christianists... (who comprise a VERY big part of the base - and are crossed at great peril)

While it might be what they ought to do in terms of the right damn thing... politically, strategically and especially tactically... they can't - for fear of incurring the wrath.

And that's where you just go off the deep end. Sure the GOP has their wackos in it, and they are just as unsavory and hard to stomach as the wackos in the Democratic party are. Both groups are mean, uncompromising, and entirely sure that they are absolutely right and good and moral and that their opposites in the other party are truly the opposites in every way (i.e. bad and immoral). But neither group really represents anything close to the majority in either party and the majorities in both parties are very much more in line with the ever growing group of Independents out there who really just tune out this crap as the insignificant noise that it is.

Sure, wackos in the Iowa caucuses and some of the early primaries vote based upon stuff like this, but those are people so entrenched in the tit-for-tat political gamemanship that they end up focusing on that rather than the big picture of what they are even voting for. But in the end, the real primaries that matter come later and they aren't ruled by side issues like these.

And if the "Christianists" were as powerful as you make them out to be for the GOP, how does a candidate like Mitch Romney, who championed a state provided universal health care and is a Mormon of all things, have as much growing momentum as he seems to have? He should be DOA if those groups were as all powerful as they are made out to be. Just like in the Democratic party, there are far more level headed people and more importantly, people that don't see politics as some type of game where winning at all costs matters most, who really end up deciding elections. The wacko bases on both sides are just things to talk about while we wait for the main event.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:But you aren't really the majority in the GOP... and even if there are a lot of people who think like you (and I know there are) - your demographic doesn't vote nearly as consistently as the Christianists... (who comprise a VERY big part of the base - and are crossed at great peril)

While it might be what they ought to do in terms of the right damn thing... politically, strategically and especially tactically... they can't - for fear of incurring the wrath.

The majority in the GOP don't think as you claim they do. You've been inside the polar opposite war machine too long and believe the trash that you are spewing.

Seriously, who the hell is a hard core right wing nut job going to vote for if the election comes down to Obama versus Mr. Middle conservative? Will they vote for Obama?

All the conservatives have to do is frame the election as Obushma and his failed policies against someone who is an improvement. The choice is four more years of economic devastation and embarrassing hand outs to political friends or something a little more conservative.

Get the message out that if the hard core right folks stay home and don't vote (because they didn't get their second coming of Jesus candidate) that they will lose this country forever.

Let the middle of the road folks decide this election and Obushma is toast.

Cluck U wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:But you aren't really the majority in the GOP... and even if there are a lot of people who think like you (and I know there are) - your demographic doesn't vote nearly as consistently as the Christianists... (who comprise a VERY big part of the base - and are crossed at great peril)

While it might be what they ought to do in terms of the right damn thing... politically, strategically and especially tactically... they can't - for fear of incurring the wrath.

The majority in the GOP don't think as you claim they do. You've been inside the polar opposite war machine too long and believe the trash that you are spewing.

Seriously, who the hell is a hard core right wing nut job going to vote for if the election comes down to Obama versus Mr. Middle conservative? Will they vote for Obama?

All the conservatives have to do is frame the election as Obushma and his failed policies against someone who is an improvement. The choice is four more years of economic devastation and embarrassing hand outs to political friends or something a little more conservative.

Get the message out that if the hard core right folks stay home and don't vote (because they didn't get their second coming of Jesus candidate) that they will lose this country forever.

Let the middle of the road folks decide this election and Obushma is toast.

THAT right there? THAT is the thinking of Dems in 2004 getting behind Mr. Milquetoast, John Kerry.

What happens when a base is uninspired? They stay home, and while you could argue that Obama's base will be uninspired... his jobs bill is already rallying the base... and that was just his opening salvo for the campaign... his base will be there in end, given his skills as a candidate.

89Hen wrote:"GOP debate audience boos active duty Marine"

Did you watch the debate? Two men booed. Those two are idiots, but let's not portray this as the audience booed.

All you hear from the crowd is booing - No way in knowing how many - but as Jon said - the real problem is that not ONE candidate on that stage dare call it out and insist that they not jeer a man serving his country.

I agree with the majority of these posts. Let the gay troops get on with what they and the straight ones are paid to do: keep our country safe. And my prediction about Perry is looking more accurate by the day: "EEEE-YYAAAAHHHH!!!!" That is one brittle dude.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:THAT right there? THAT is the thinking of Dems in 2004 getting behind Mr. Milquetoast, John Kerry.

What happens when a base is uninspired? They stay home, and while you could argue that Obama's base will be uninspired... his jobs bill is already rallying the base... and that was just his opening salvo for the campaign... his base will be there in end, given his skills as a candidate.

You are again reading what you want to read. 2004 was an entirely different beast.

Of course Obama's base will be out to vote. Do you think the left wing nut jobs and the blacks are going to stay home? No way.

It is the middle ground that will win this election.

So, if the right gets their base out by using proven fear tactics that Obama is a commie and a vote for third party is a loss, then each base is out. Do that through the back door, though.

The Repubs need to gain the middle votes...and they can't do it while pandering to the far right. So, dump the crap and get to the meat of the election...Obama has failed miserably with job creation (the new jobs bill is a joke), Obushma has pandered to special interests and Wall Street, Obushma is involved in three wars - two of which he personally added to the problem and our debt, and Obama's failed policies are adding to our economic woes.

There are so many independents ready to dump Obushma...cater to them instead of some right wing nut job and Obushma will lose.

GannonFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
But you aren't really the majority in the GOP... and even if there are a lot of people who think like you (and I know there are) - your demographic doesn't vote nearly as consistently as the Christianists... (who comprise a VERY big part of the base - and are crossed at great peril)

While it might be what they ought to do in terms of the right damn thing... politically, strategically and especially tactically... they can't - for fear of incurring the wrath.

And that's where you just go off the deep end. Sure the GOP has their wackos in it, and they are just as unsavory and hard to stomach as the wackos in the Democratic party are. Both groups are mean, uncompromising, and entirely sure that they are absolutely right and good and moral and that their opposites in the other party are truly the opposites in every way (i.e. bad and immoral). But neither group really represents anything close to the majority in either party and the majorities in both parties are very much more in line with the ever growing group of Independents out there who really just tune out this crap as the insignificant noise that it is.

Sure, wackos in the Iowa caucuses and some of the early primaries vote based upon stuff like this, but those are people so entrenched in the tit-for-tat political gamemanship that they end up focusing on that rather than the big picture of what they are even voting for. But in the end, the real primaries that matter come later and they aren't ruled by side issues like these.

And if the "Christianists" were as powerful as you make them out to be for the GOP, how does a candidate like Mitch Romney, who championed a state provided universal health care and is a Mormon of all things, have as much growing momentum as he seems to have? He should be DOA if those groups were as all powerful as they are made out to be. Just like in the Democratic party, there are far more level headed people and more importantly, people that don't see politics as some type of game where winning at all costs matters most, who really end up deciding elections. The wacko bases on both sides are just things to talk about while we wait for the main event.

I was in the GOP 10 years ago - I've spent 10 years in the Dem base. I've met both bases and worked with them eye-to-eye. The fringe left is scary in their bizarre ideology and world view, no doubt. However, I have observed that generally, the Party itself strongly and frequently distances itself from that base, both in rhetoric and fact. As a result by the way, we lose a chunk of that far left base every election because they don't pass "purity tests"... in fact many on the fringe are often found in the Green Party camp because the Dems are too "establishment, man" for them. (Seriously - as someone who has had to organize in this world... you want to slap them with a fish)

The GOP on the other hand, has largely embraced their hard base. This was the entirety of Rove's 2004 strategy. Forget the middle - rally the base. It worked then. In 2010, that hard base metastasized, calling itself the "tea party" - a catchy name for something that already existed. They've seized a remarkable amount of control with regard to the party apparatus, and surviving inter-party fights without them on your side has become nearly impossible. (whereas moderate Dems FREQUENTLY survive such challenges)

Romney is a second place candidate, despite being the fields clear best choice. (even if he does remind me of Kerry) The reason he isn't running away with the nomination is largely because of this Christianist movement - that is currently split between Perry (most of them) and Bachmann (fading fast). This movement - evangelical Christianist (politicized Christianity, not altogether dissimilar from Islamism) is a VERY large, and very powerful presence in the GOP base. Crossing them is done at great peril. They represent something like 35-45% of the party base... that's a HUGE bloc of voters - and in places like Iowa and South Carolina, that number is likely much higher - and look where Romney is struggling? (and their beef with Romney isn't even about health care... it's about his religion)

Watch Perry - who may now start to splutter given that he can't pass purity tests on illegal immigration (a purely pragmatic thing for a Texas Gov. who has to deal with it in the real world to do)... keep an eye - but I wouldn't be shocked if this really hurts him, and a segment of that hard base goes candidate shopping yet again.

Cluck U wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:THAT right there? THAT is the thinking of Dems in 2004 getting behind Mr. Milquetoast, John Kerry.

What happens when a base is uninspired? They stay home, and while you could argue that Obama's base will be uninspired... his jobs bill is already rallying the base... and that was just his opening salvo for the campaign... his base will be there in end, given his skills as a candidate.

You are again reading what you want to read. 2004 was an entirely different beast.

Of course Obama's base will be out to vote. Do you think the left wing nut jobs and the blacks are going to stay home? No way.

It is the middle ground that will win this election.

So, if the right gets their base out by using proven fear tactics that Obama is a commie and a vote for third party is a loss, then each base is out. Do that through the back door, though.

The Repubs need to gain the middle votes...and they can't do it while pandering to the far right. So, dump the crap and get to the meat of the election...Obama has failed miserably with job creation (the new jobs bill is a joke), Obushma has pandered to special interests and Wall Street, Obushma is involved in three wars - two of which he personally added to the problem and our debt, and Obama's failed policies are adding to our economic woes.

There are so many independents ready to dump Obushma...cater to them instead of some right wing nut job and Obushma will lose.

I tend to disagree - I think elections are generally about turning out bases - but setting that aside...

I agree with you that the GOP needs to win back Reagan Dems, but right now they are doing everything they can to alienate them...

TwinTownBisonFan wrote: I tend to disagree - I think elections are generally about turning out bases - but setting that aside...

I agree with you that the GOP needs to win back Reagan Dems, but right now they are doing everything they can to alienate them...

Local elections are almost entirely about turning out the bases. Once you move away from local election, it's less about the bases and more about the ever growing Independents and those who are only slightly aligned with either party. Obama didn't win because he excited the Dem base, he won because he got the Independents. Bush won the same way, although you could argue that both Gore and Kerry lost the Independents as opposed to Bush actively winning them.

Obama's biggest challenge will likely be Romney - Perry looks likely to talk himself out of contention as the more people see him the more they realize he's a clown. How the Independents view Obama and Romney will determine that election, not who gets whose wackos out more.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

89Hen wrote:"GOP debate audience boos active duty Marine"

Did you watch the debate? Two men booed. Those two are idiots, but let's not portray this as the audience booed.

All you hear from the crowd is booing - No way in knowing how many - but as Jon said - the real problem is that not ONE candidate on that stage dare call it out and insist that they not jeer a man serving his country.

That's because it was two people.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I was in the GOP 10 years ago - I've spent 10 years in the Dem base. I've met both bases and worked with them eye-to-eye.

And so goes another political discussion. Gannon, forget it. TTBF is the know it all in all things politics.

89Hen wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I was in the GOP 10 years ago - I've spent 10 years in the Dem base. I've met both bases and worked with them eye-to-eye.

And so goes another political discussion. Gannon, forget it. TTBF is the know it all in all things politics.

Give it up, Hen. You've met someone who is superior to you in these things. You had good run until about '06, then most passed you by. You're now a poli board also-ran. Live with it.

89Hen wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I was in the GOP 10 years ago - I've spent 10 years in the Dem base. I've met both bases and worked with them eye-to-eye.

And so goes another political discussion. Gannon, forget it. TTBF is the know it all in all things politics.

dude - when you talk about banking - and Z is in on the convo - do you get sand in you vagina about it when he drops his careers worth of experience in to the conversation?