Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:45 am
by Appaholic
Whatever their strength, American troops will not determine success in Afghanistan. Nor will the newly formed Afghan National Army. As U.S. forces are gradually withdrawn over the next three years, it is Pakistan’s 600,000-strong army that will become the dominant military force in the region and will try to shape its future. But that military is undergoing a deep internal crisis of identity, its most serious since Pakistan’s founding in 1947. How it resolves this crisis will determine its future, the future of the Afghan war — and much else.
This week’s news that a Pakistani brigadier general has been arrested for his ties to a radical Islamist group, Hizb ut-Tahrir, is only the latest in series of events that have rocked that nation. In the past year, two senior Pakistani officials have been gunned down, one by his own security guard. Last month, well-armed militants attacked a key naval base in Karachi, an operation that required inside assistance. Also last month, a brave Pakistani journalist, Syed Saleem Shahzad, who detailed the growing extremist presence within the Pakistani military, was tortured and killed, almost certainly by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (which denied the allegation). And then there is the case of Osama bin Laden, who was for years comfortably ensconced in an army town.
Last month, Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, was invited to speak at the country’s National Defense University. Addressing a large gathering of officers, Haqqani asked the audience, “What is the principal national security threat to Pakistan?” He offered three categories: “from within [Pakistan],” “India,” and, “the United States.” A plurality voted for the third option.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:46 am
by Appaholic
Tell me again how much money the US has given to Pakistan to "combat" terrorism as a partner? $20bil I believe?...
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:52 am
by Ibanez
Appaholic wrote:Tell me again how much money the US has given to Pakistan to "combat" terrorism as a partner? $20bil I believe?...
What a lousy "investment." We got Bin Laden, but what is there left for us to do? Either way, Pakistan is a shitty place to live.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:54 am
by Appaholic
Ibanez wrote:
Appaholic wrote:Tell me again how much money the US has given to Pakistan to "combat" terrorism as a partner? $20bil I believe?...
What a lousy "investment." We got Bin Laden, but what is there left for us to do? Either way, Pakistan is a shitty place to live.
Agree. And we got OBL in spite of Pakistan, not due to the investment....
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:09 am
by kalm
Nukes.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:17 am
by LeadBolt
Strategic quotes from the article:
Pakistan’s military has traditionally been seen as a secular and disciplined organization. But the evidence is now overwhelming that it has been infiltrated at all levels by violent Islamists, including Taliban and al-Qaeda sympathizers.
Islamist ideology is replacing strategy. For 60 years, Pakistan’s military has focused obsessively on its rivalry with India. Large elements within that military appear to be switching obsessions, and the United States is replacing India as the organizing principle around which Pakistan’s military understands its national security interests. If this happens, not only is the Afghan war lost but Pakistan itself is also lost. (It does not have that far to fall; it made its annual appearance this year on Foreign Policy magazine’s “Failed States” list, coming in 12th, above Yemen.)
Pakistan is drifting into a strategic black hole.
Islamist ideology is taking over much of the world. Their goal is domination and subjugation. If you haven't read much on this you should. It will be the shaping force of the world over the next several decades. The Islamist ideology is unfathomable to those of us with a Western world view, but it is the fastest growing world view of the last 50 years.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:18 am
by Ivytalk
With "friends" like Pakistan, who needs enemies?
And those folks could use a few droneloads of Speed Stick, too.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:25 am
by Grizalltheway
LeadBolt wrote:Strategic quotes from the article:
Pakistan’s military has traditionally been seen as a secular and disciplined organization. But the evidence is now overwhelming that it has been infiltrated at all levels by violent Islamists, including Taliban and al-Qaeda sympathizers.
Islamist ideology is replacing strategy. For 60 years, Pakistan’s military has focused obsessively on its rivalry with India. Large elements within that military appear to be switching obsessions, and the United States is replacing India as the organizing principle around which Pakistan’s military understands its national security interests. If this happens, not only is the Afghan war lost but Pakistan itself is also lost. (It does not have that far to fall; it made its annual appearance this year on Foreign Policy magazine’s “Failed States” list, coming in 12th, above Yemen.)
Pakistan is drifting into a strategic black hole.
Islamist ideology is taking over much of the world. Their goal is domination and subjugation. If you haven't read much on this you should. It will be the shaping force of the world over the next several decades. The Islamist ideology is unfathomable to those of us with a Western world view, but it is the fastest growing world view of the last 50 years.
Actually, according to the same guy who wrote this article, it's been steadily petering out over the last decade.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:32 am
by LeadBolt
Grizalltheway wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:Strategic quotes from the article:
Islamist ideology is taking over much of the world. Their goal is domination and subjugation. If you haven't read much on this you should. It will be the shaping force of the world over the next several decades. The Islamist ideology is unfathomable to those of us with a Western world view, but it is the fastest growing world view of the last 50 years.
Actualy, according to the same guy who wrote this article, it's been steadily petering out over the last decade.
While I would like to believe this conclusion, my observation does not agree with that.
Islam is now estimated to be the religion on 28% of the world's population.
Ten out of the top 15 countries (67%) with failed governments have Muslim pluralities and nine majorities. While the majority of Muslims are peaceful and moderate, the radical Islamists continue to exert more influence.
Creditable estimates are that their will be approx.1.8-2.0 billion Muslims in 2011 and that approx. 15% are radical Islamists. That is 8 to 10 times the population of Nazi Germany and equivalent of the 90% population of the US today.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:15 am
by Grizalltheway
LeadBolt wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Actualy, according to the same guy who wrote this article, it's been steadily petering out over the last decade.
While I would like to believe this conclusion, my observation does not agree with that. Islam is now estimated to be the religion on 28% of the worlds population. Ten out of the top 15 countries with failed governments have Muslim pluralities and nine majorities. While the majority of Muslims are peaceful and moderate, the radical Islamists continue to exert more influence.
In what way? Because of the fact that they get more attention from western media?
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:18 am
by LeadBolt
In that they continue to gain influence within Islam and the governments of predominately Islamic countries tilting them toward radicalization as the article by Zakaria points out is happening in Pakistan.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:40 am
by AZGrizFan
Grizalltheway wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:
While I would like to believe this conclusion, my observation does not agree with that. Islam is now estimated to be the religion on 28% of the worlds population. Ten out of the top 15 countries with failed governments have Muslim pluralities and nine majorities. While the majority of Muslims are peaceful and moderate, the radical Islamists continue to exert more influence.
In what way? Because of the fact that they get more attention from western media?
Is it the liberal's natural position to have one's head firmly planted so far up one's ass?
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:47 am
by LeadBolt
It's not like this is new...
In 1786 Thomas Jefferson, then US ambassador to France, and John Adams, then US Ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Dey’s ambassador to Britain, in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress’ vote of funding. To the US Congress these two future Presidents later reported the reasons for the Muslims’ hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.
“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat its failures...
That was 225 years ago!
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:49 am
by Grizalltheway
AZGrizFan wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
In what way? Because of the fact that they get more attention from western media?
Is it the liberal's natural position to have one's head firmly planted so far up one's ass?
I'm not saying radical Islamists aren't a threat, I'm saying they aren't going to rise up as one and take over the western world, like Fox News and friends would have us believe.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:52 am
by LeadBolt
Grizalltheway wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Is it the liberal's natural position to have one's head firmly planted so far up one's ass?
I'm not saying radical Islamists aren't a threat, I'm saying they aren't going to rise up as one and take over the western world, like Fox News and friends would have us believe.
Do you pay attention to what has been going on in European politics with regard to this?
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:18 am
by LeadBolt
Listen to both the question and the answer, then read the Quran and the Sura.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:27 am
by Grizalltheway
LeadBolt wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
I'm not saying radical Islamists aren't a threat, I'm saying they aren't going to rise up as one and take over the western world, like Fox News and friends would have us believe.
Do you pay attention to what has been going on in European politics with regard to this?
Yes, and as much as my fellow liberals like to point to Europe as a stronghold of tolerance and acceptence, the way they've responded to the influx of Muslims has been disgusting.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:32 am
by LeadBolt
Grizalltheway wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:
Do you pay attention to what has been going on in European politics with regard to this?
Yes, and as much as my fellow liberals like to point to Europe as a stronghold of tolerance and acceptence, the way they've responded to the influx of Muslims has been disgusting.
Perhaps when Europe was finally confronted with what is the least tolerant and accepting mainline philosophy in the world today, that of Quranic Islam, they realized they had the choice to either fight for their freedom or face death or subjugation as the prophet commands the followers of Islam to practice with regard to all non-Muslims.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:42 am
by CitadelGrad
Ivytalk wrote:And those folks could use a few droneloads of Speed Stick, too.
Yeah, but that goes for the French and Italians too.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:55 am
by LeadBolt
CitadelGrad wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:And those folks could use a few droneloads of Speed Stick, too.
Yeah, but that goes for the French and Italians too.
I say send in the drones and drop the Speed Sticks on all of them....
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:53 pm
by Ivytalk
Grizalltheway wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:
Do you pay attention to what has been going on in European politics with regard to this?
Yes, and as much as my fellow liberals like to point to Europe as a stronghold of tolerance and acceptence, the way they've responded to the influx of Muslims has been disgusting.
No, it hasn't. The crime rate in those Muslim neighborhoods -- crime against the natives, that is -- is skyrocketing. When my wife and I were in Paris a few years ago, some young Muslim thug tried to steal my wife's purse, and a brave young French police woman took off after him (on a bicycle, no less) like a shot. We'll never know if she caught him or not.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:56 pm
by Grizalltheway
Ivytalk wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Yes, and as much as my fellow liberals like to point to Europe as a stronghold of tolerance and acceptence, the way they've responded to the influx of Muslims has been disgusting.
No, it hasn't. The crime rate in those Muslim neighborhoods -- crime against the natives, that is -- is skyrocketing. When my wife and I were in Paris a few years ago, some young Muslim thug tried to steal my wife's purse, and a brave young French police woman took off after him (on a bicycle, no less) like a shot. We'll never know if she caught him or not.
Well, I guess that means all of them are thugs, just like all black dudes are, right?
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:34 pm
by Grizalltheway
Also, I fail to see how banning minarets and burqas will help solve those problems.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:12 pm
by Ivytalk
Grizalltheway wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:
No, it hasn't. The crime rate in those Muslim neighborhoods -- crime against the natives, that is -- is skyrocketing. When my wife and I were in Paris a few years ago, some young Muslim thug tried to steal my wife's purse, and a brave young French police woman took off after him (on a bicycle, no less) like a shot. We'll never know if she caught him or not.
Well, I guess that means all of them are thugs, just like all black dudes are, right?
I love the way you oversimplify, GATW. Emblematic of one having insufficient experience with life.
Re: Zakaria: The Radicalization of Pakistan’s Military
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:38 pm
by LeadBolt
Grizalltheway wrote:Also, I fail to see how banning minarets and burqas will help solve those problems.
And Neville Chamberlin did not see how opposing Hitler would lead to peace either. Remember the Muslims have invaded Europe before.
