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http://www.confederate150.com/2011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ROAD TRIP BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Citdog, I will see you there my friend!

I'm sure you have been following the events so far. The 150th Commeration will be going on until 2015. I think it is a great way to truly educate the public on historically significant events that shaped the country and particulary the south. The south didn't rebound from Reconstruction until the 1940's and 1950's. This is not a celebration of slavery. Slavery was not only a human rights issue, but an economic and financial issue that impacted the southern economy(but that is a seperate thread/issue). The facts are that the abolition movement was very small, but had wealthy backers, slavery was on its way out and that the war was not started with secession of the states, but the actions of Lincoln as Commander in Chief, a man who admittedly disliked Blacks and wanted them out of the USA altogether.

It was just announced that another lovable loser, Gentleman Gerry Cooney, the Great White Hope, will be reenacting his valiant fight for the heavyweight title against Larry Holmes.

By all accounts, his cause was just, his spirit resolute. He was the better tactician, landing many fierce blows in the early going and judged by many to be the early winner. Alas, he couldn't muster the resources to withstand a long fight and bowed to a superior opponent.

93henfan wrote:It was just announced that another lovable loser, Gentleman Gerry Cooney, the Great White Hope, will be reenacting his valiant fight for the heavyweight title against Larry Holmes.

By all accounts, his cause was just, his spirit resolute. He was the better tactician, landing many fierce blows in the early going and judged by many to be the early winner. Alas, he couldn't muster the resources to withstand a long fight and bowed to a superior opponent.

haha. I think most people on here, know that I am an even keeled, realistic interpreter of American History. The Confederacy could have worked if there was no war. The Confederacy was winning the war, you can't deny the decisive battles and that it wasn't until the Summer/Fall of 1863 that the tide changed.

HOWEVER, Living inthe Southern Confederacy was not a great system. No central, cohesive currancy was horrible for trade. Passports were required to travel and complete commerce amongst states in the CSA and I truly believe the CSA would have withered away and the states would have requested for readmittance to the Union. I am a proud South Carolina native with ancestors that fought and died on both Sides, but reality cannot be avoided.

I hope they reenact Sherman's march to the sea as part of the celebration.

HI54UNI wrote:I hope they reenact Sherman's march to the sea as part of the celebration.

SOme people don't get it.

Ibanez wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:I hope they reenact Sherman's march to the sea as part of the celebration.

SOme people don't get it.

You're right.

HI54UNI wrote:I hope they reenact Sherman's march to the sea as part of the celebration.

What if the US Military in Afghanistan employed a tactic similar to Sherman's march starting in Kabul and ending in the tribal outreaches of Pakistan where the heart of Al Qaeda and the Taliban reside? Can you imagine the outrage in the liberal media? Yet those same people will tell you that Sherman's march was just.

My wife is a civil war buff, a history major and studied at Cambridge, and what she showed me about the rape, pillage, outright theft, and destruction Sherman's troops wrought is nothing short of criminal, yet Sherman was a paradox as he was a loyal and true man. Perhaps we should do the same in the middle east??????

blueballs wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:I hope they reenact Sherman's march to the sea as part of the celebration.

What if the US Military in Afghanistan employed a tactic similar to Sherman's march starting in Kabul and ending in the tribal outreaches of Pakistan where the heart of Al Qaeda and the Taliban reside? Can you imagine the outrage in the liberal media? Yet those same people will tell you that Sherman's march was just.

My wife is a civil war buff, a history major and studied at Cambridge, and what she showed me about the rape, pillage, outright theft, and destruction Sherman's troops wrought is nothing short of criminal, yet Sherman was a paradox as he was a loyal and true man. Perhaps we should do the same in the middle east??????

Don't bring inconvenient facts into this discussion, blueballs. The Union's fight was a righteous human-rights crusade and there were no ulterior motives involved in the fight. The comic-book version of this war we learned in our schools is accurate.

Also, jailing reporters who criticize you, kidnapping state legislators, suspending habeas corpus, and starting a war against a legal seccession that killed 630,000 people is pure leadership and qualifies you to be among the best presidents ever.

Also, why do you hate black people?

Pwns wrote:

blueballs wrote:
What if the US Military in Afghanistan employed a tactic similar to Sherman's march starting in Kabul and ending in the tribal outreaches of Pakistan where the heart of Al Qaeda and the Taliban reside? Can you imagine the outrage in the liberal media? Yet those same people will tell you that Sherman's march was just.

My wife is a civil war buff, a history major and studied at Cambridge, and what she showed me about the rape, pillage, outright theft, and destruction Sherman's troops wrought is nothing short of criminal, yet Sherman was a paradox as he was a loyal and true man. Perhaps we should do the same in the middle east??????

Don't bring inconvenient facts into this discussion, blueballs. The Union's fight was a righteous human-rights crusade and there were no ulterior motives involved in the fight. The comic-book version of this war we learned in our schools is accurate.

Also, jailing reporters who criticize you, kidnapping state legislators, suspending habeas corpus, and starting a war against a legal seccession that killed 630,000 people is pure leadership and qualifies you to be among the best presidents ever.

Also, why do you hate black people?

STOP HIJACKING THIS THREAD WITH FACTS AND REALITY!

I was going to attend and find whether the vicimization of the south was valid. But this was at the bottom of the invitation:

If you are Southern- You will be there!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(I think they forgot the part about also being white)

The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

dbackjon wrote:The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

Nobody glossed over it. Slavery wasn't the only cause and it's a shame that some people can't realize that. Hell, the Colonists seceded over taxes brought on by a war that was aimed at protecting them. That was an act of treason. I'm a proud American, but I not unreasonable to realize that this isn't a perfect world. Slavery was a financial issue. If someone is fucking you over financially, i doubt you will turn the other cheek. It's not a celebration, it's a commemoration.

If Lincoln was so great, why did he IGNORE the early calls for peace and procede with war? If you look at the personalities and deeds done in thier Presidencies, Lincoln and GWB are similiar but Lincoln went further in stealing liberties. That is an undeniable, yet overlooked fact. American history is messy, corrupt and disturbing but it is our history. I'm not suggesting you be proud of everything, I'm not proud of everything we've done. But I do think we should know of true history and not sugar coat the past. That would be a travesty.

Ibanez wrote:

dbackjon wrote:The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

Nobody glossed over it. Slavery wasn't the only cause and it's a shame that some people can't realize that. Hell, the Colonists seceded over taxes brought on by a war that was aimed at protecting them. That was an act of treason. I'm a proud American, but I not unreasonable to realize that this isn't a perfect world. Slavery was a financial issue. If someone is fucking you over financially, i doubt you will turn the other cheek. It's not a celebration, it's a commemoration.

If Lincoln was so great, why did he IGNORE the early calls for peace and procede with war? If you look at the personalities and deeds done in thier Presidencies, Lincoln and GWB are similiar but Lincoln went further in stealing liberties. That is an undeniable, yet overlooked fact. American history is messy, corrupt and disturbing but it is our history. I'm not suggesting you be proud of everything, I'm not proud of everything we've done. But I do think we should know of true history and not sugar coat the past. That would be a travesty.

Three words:

Military Industrial Complex.

dbackjon wrote:The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

No doubt.

In case anybody forgot, Lincoln's "great" Emancipation Proclamation did NOT free the slaves in the northern states.

Look at what YANKEES did to blacks in July 1863.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dbackjon wrote:The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

Exhibit A of what is being taught in the public schools today.

Jon, I could suggest a couple of short reads for you (written by some very even handed people like Bruce Catton) but why bother, really?

CID1990 wrote:

dbackjon wrote:The South went to war over slavery.

Shameful that normally sane and smart people try to gloss over that.


Shameful to celebrate it.

Exhibit A of what is being taught in the public schools today.

Jon, I could suggest a couple of short reads for you (written by some very even handed people like Bruce Catton) but why bother, really?

Have read much from Catton.

The reasons were complex, but all boiled down to Slavery. I know in the South, that is not something that is easy to admit, but it is the core reason.

yep, skip right over the northerners treatment of black people there dback.

more examples of yankee hypocrisy.

http://www.mrwebman.com/confederate-flag-trueth-1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John is correct that there were lots of issues that led to the CW, but the main cause of the war was Slavery. Of course the Union states had racism, but that's different from slavery.

The fact remains that it is the right of anyone who wants to celebrate something to do so. If you don't like it, don't go. I won't be attending, since I am pretty sure that the act of secession is pretty much the dumbest thing the state of S.C. ever did economically. It was a knee jerk reaction and resulted tragedy for our culture.

However, for someone to wish for the reenactment of Sherman's march is beyond atrocious. You sick fuck. Why don't we reenact the Holocaust while we're at it. Maybe a few other human atrocities. Fuck you.

death dealer wrote:The fact remains that it is the right of anyone who wants to celebrate something to do so. If you don't like it, don't go. I won't be attending, since I am pretty sure that the act of secession is pretty much the dumbest thing the state of S.C. ever did economically. It was a knee jerk reaction and resulted tragedy for our culture.

However, for someone to wish for the reenactment of Sherman's march is beyond atrocious. You sick ****. Why don't we reenact the Holocaust while we're at it. Maybe a few other human atrocities. **** you.

exactly. you will NEVER hear the MSM talk about how Sherman's troops raped innocent women, burned property, killed innocent children, both free and slave and you will never hear how slaves and whites took up arms together to resist their yankee asses either but, unfortunately, all for naught. I'm proud folks can still assemble peacefully for something they believe in. Jon has no problems when hairy men wearing assless chaps going topless skip around all in the name of "peace and progression".

Don't be hatin' on Sherman. That war had to be ended sooner or later. Fuggin' barefoot sumbitches had a lot of fight in 'em and had to be broken.

"“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - WIlliam Tecumseh Sherman

dbackjon wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Exhibit A of what is being taught in the public schools today.

Jon, I could suggest a couple of short reads for you (written by some very even handed people like Bruce Catton) but why bother, really?

Have read much from Catton.

The reasons were complex, but all boiled down to Slavery. I know in the South, that is not something that is easy to admit, but it is the core reason.

I think Catton's actual quote was something like "The Civil War was fought for many reasons, but the one factor which, in its absence the war would not have been fought, was slavery.

I don't think any historians gloss over slavery. However, suggesting that the Union went to war to end slavery is just as disingenuous as saying that the South went to war merely to preserve it. There is "glossing" going on in both camps, and they both tend to deny the real causes and effects of the Civil War. As ridiculous as Southern claims are that the war was not about slavery are the northern claims of righteous justification.

Keep in mind that less than 5% of the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy were slaveholders. (Owning slaves in 1860 was akin to owning a 9-series BMW in 2010 (in terms of economics only)). Most of them, like all of my great-great grandfathers, were subsistence farmers. Some were drafted and some went off to fight because they were rallying to the colors of their respective states. To boil all of their motivations, all of their beliefs, fears and wants during that time is not only dishonorable, it is downright dishonest.

There is also a large body of evidence that suggests that not only was slavery in its death throes in 1860 (which is why the planter class was so belligerently trying to protect the institution) but also that it was the policies of the northern government which ultimately led to the general impoverishment of the South (as well as the newly freed slaves) as well as the backlash in the form of the KKK, Jim Crow, etc. Once Lincoln was dead, the policy of the North was revenge, pure and simple. That policy began with Sherman's march and ended in 1886.

There are plenty of bloody hands from that period, and the actions of the Federal government were as egregious as those of the South in most cases. Some people (myself included) do not ignore the causes, they just choose to honor the men who fought in that conflict rather than engage in endless non-academic debates about those causes.

Lastly, there is nothing shameful about what my ancestors did. That I choose to celebrate them is shameful in your eyes is as much a reflection on you as it is on me. My great great grandfather fought in the 26th NC infantry and was a part of Pettigrew's Division at Gettysburg. he was captured on the first day of the battle and then subesquently spent the rest of the war in Point Lookout, MD. When he was paroled after the war, he walked home from Maryland to Yanceyville, NC. Upon his return he went back to doing what he did before the war: raising hogs and corn.

BTW- look up the Morrill Tarriff Act.

While very few southerners owned slaves, it has been estimated that 3/5s of the wealth in South Carolina at the time of secession was in the form of human capital. That is a very powerful motivator for those that control the social order to maintain it. As far as the vast majority of soldiers not owning slaves, through out history the vast majority of soldiers have not been property owners or at least not affluent property owners. Considering that South Carolina seceded following the election of a President from a party formed by abolitionists, there is little doubt as to why South Carolina seceded ( for additional proof read DECLARATION OF THE IMMEDIATE CAUSES WHICH INDUCE AND JUSTIFY THE SECESSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA FROM THE FEDERAL UNION. http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/decl-sc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. South Carolina seceded mainly to preserve its peculiar institution. However, and it may be semantics but I don’t think so and to the extent that secession can be separated from the war, the south fought the war for independence. One can argue the rights and wrongs of independence, but there seems to be little evidence that the main reason the north fought the war was to free the slaves. It did become part of the policy in the latter years of the war and once again you can argue whether it was policy or propaganda, but in the end the slaves were freed.

I will agree with Death Dealer, that secession was a stupid act on the part of South Carolina, but the question that remains is considering the loss of 500,000 citizens, the continued de facto slavery that existed in all states for another 100 years that only ended during the civil rights movement, the dire poverty that existed in the south for 100+ years and a myriad of other facts I won’t list, was the war worth the fight or should the north have allowed the split to occur?