China

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SDHornet
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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm
SDHornet wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:20 pm

Progressive "logic" at it's finest. When thing don't go your way then run afoul of the rules/chain of command by any means necessary.
Of course. That's literally one of the main logic differences studied between progressives and conservatives.

Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed if it's unethical. Rules are malleable.

Conservatives are typically more authoritarian. Rule, laws, chains-of-command must be followed no matter what.

Both ignore laws to get their way, but progressives are open about it while conservatives like to pretend they believe in the law.
So what Milley did isn't authoritarian? :rofl:

Oh and I bet you don't feel this way about the folks openly choosing to ignore the Biden China Virus mandates. :coffee:
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:41 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm

Of course. That's literally one of the main logic differences studied between progressives and conservatives.

Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed if it's unethical. Rules are malleable.

Conservatives are typically more authoritarian. Rule, laws, chains-of-command must be followed no matter what.

Both ignore laws to get their way, but progressives are open about it while conservatives like to pretend they believe in the law.
So what Milley did isn't authoritarian? :rofl:

Oh and I bet you don't feel this way about the folks openly choosing to ignore the Biden China Virus mandates. :coffee:
Correct on both counts.

Welcome to human society SD. Rules and punishments are all relative, as has always been and will always be. No tool is perfect, including democracy, but it's the best we got to check each other. And in the end laws are just ideas; they mean different things to different people.
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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:50 pm
SDHornet wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:41 pm

So what Milley did isn't authoritarian? :rofl:

Oh and I bet you don't feel this way about the folks openly choosing to ignore the Biden China Virus mandates. :coffee:
Correct on both counts.

Welcome to human society SD. Rules and punishments are all relative, as has always been and will always be. No tool is perfect, including democracy, but it's the best we got to check each other. And in the end laws are just ideas; they mean different things to different people.
Your mental gymnastics are quite astounding.
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:07 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:50 pm

Correct on both counts.

Welcome to human society SD. Rules and punishments are all relative, as has always been and will always be. No tool is perfect, including democracy, but it's the best we got to check each other. And in the end laws are just ideas; they mean different things to different people.
Your mental gymnastics are quite astounding.
Call it what you want, but rules shouldn't be followed blindly. Of course laws are necessary to limit anarchy, but decisions should include the heart, mind, and some moral compass in order to find a fair outcome. People with bad morality (like Trump) will take advantage of that flexibility, but in general flexibility with the law is a better way to deal with reality because we're talking about human society, not programmed robots.

I'm sure the lawyers here will tell you that this type of thinking is built into our legal and judicial systems and is a key component of "Spirit of Law" in enlightenment ideals. The major US example is the Constitution being a living document open to flexibility and interpretation. Another is that a jury can follow their own sense of justice and nullify a law.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:41 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm

Of course. That's literally one of the main logic differences studied between progressives and conservatives.

Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed if it's unethical. Rules are malleable.

Conservatives are typically more authoritarian. Rule, laws, chains-of-command must be followed no matter what.

Both ignore laws to get their way, but progressives are open about it while conservatives like to pretend they believe in the law.
So what Milley did isn't authoritarian? :rofl:

Oh and I bet you don't feel this way about the folks openly choosing to ignore the Biden China Virus mandates. :coffee:
How is it authoritarian? It’s practically the opposite.

It’s a bitter pill to swallow that Trump was dangerous and that Jan 6th was real I guess.
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Re: China

Post by andy7171 »

Well, this morning I've learned trip doesn't understand how the military works and once again kalmy is excusing him.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

andy7171 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:15 am Well, this morning I've learned trip doesn't understand how the military works and once again kalmy is excusing him.
Hmmm…didn’t know I was replying to Trip there.

Hey Andy…did you know that according to the book, Trump literally told Pence he wasn’t going to be his friend anymore once Pence admitted he was going to certify the election results?

I want you to know, I will still be your friend, Andy!
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Re: China

Post by andy7171 »

kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:22 am
andy7171 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:15 am Well, this morning I've learned trip doesn't understand how the military works and once again kalmy is excusing him.
Hmmm…didn’t know I was replying to Trip there.

Hey Andy…did you know that according to the book, Trump literally told Pence he wasn’t going to be his friend anymore once Pence admitted he was going to certify the election results?

I want you to know, I will still be your friend, Andy!
I can't read asshole!
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

andy7171 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:25 am
kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:22 am

Hmmm…didn’t know I was replying to Trip there.

Hey Andy…did you know that according to the book, Trump literally told Pence he wasn’t going to be his friend anymore once Pence admitted he was going to certify the election results?

I want you to know, I will still be your friend, Andy!
I can't read asshole!
I know. That’s why they wouldn’t let you play center.
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

I mean how it works on paper, and what you should actually do, is the entire point of "Spirit of Law". It's not in the spirit of the chain-in-command to threaten nations just because you're having a temper tantrum. January 6 and afterwards was an especially shaky moment. If Trump had no issue attacking his own nation, there's reason to think a man who hated international order may threaten international order on the way out. If Woodward's accounts are true, there were serious discussions about international upheaval by the Trump admin.

Milley was being an adult and statesmen when our statesmen had disappeared. He brought back some order in a chaotic moment.

If you have a proven traitor (Trump, Jan 6.) within the chain-of-command, it's 100% ok to go around that person.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed if it's unethical. Rules are malleable.
So pseudo-Progressives are a lot like MAGAts in that regard. MAGAts truly believe the election was stolen and certification of the election unethical. As a result, they shouldn't have to follow rules/laws regarding that election.
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:50 pm Welcome to human society SD. Rules and punishments are all relative, as has always been and will always be. No tool is perfect, including democracy, but it's the best we got to check each other. And in the end laws are just ideas; they mean different things to different people.
kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am It’s a bitter pill to swallow that Trump was dangerous and that Jan 6th was real I guess.
This is a bunch of sanctimonious bullcrap - both pseudo-progressives and MAGAts believe they can break the rules because their cause is righteous but if the other side breaks the rules they're traitorous.

What's it feel like to be mirror images of BDKaren and CG?
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed if it's unethical. Rules are malleable.
So pseudo-Progressives are a lot like MAGAts in that regard. MAGAts truly believe the election was stolen and certification of the election unethical. As a result, they shouldn't have to follow rules/laws regarding that election.
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:50 pm Welcome to human society SD. Rules and punishments are all relative, as has always been and will always be. No tool is perfect, including democracy, but it's the best we got to check each other. And in the end laws are just ideas; they mean different things to different people.
kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am It’s a bitter pill to swallow that Trump was dangerous and that Jan 6th was real I guess.
This is a bunch of sanctimonious bullcrap - both pseudo-progressives and MAGAts believe they can break the rules because their cause is righteous but if the other side breaks the rules they're traitorous.

What's it feel like to be mirror images of BDKaren and CG?
Oh cry me a river. :lol:

Sometimes one side is wrong. :nod:
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Re: China

Post by andy7171 »

Here's my simpleton non-military take on this. Were Milley to alert China of an impending secret assault. China would prepare and defend itself as one would expect. Thus killing, potentially, Americans that might otherwise not have died due to the element of surprise.

That, is what I find treasonous and unacceptable.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

andy7171 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:33 am Here's my simpleton non-military take on this. Were Milley to alert China of an impending secret assault. China would prepare and defend itself as one would expect. Thus killing, potentially, Americans that might otherwise not have died due to the element of surprise.

That, is what I find treasonous and unacceptable.
Would an impending secret assault over pride be acceptable?
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Re: China

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:38 pm Progressives acknowledge the law, but don't necessarily think it should be followed
You speak the truth. :lol:
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

andy7171 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:33 am Here's my simpleton non-military take on this. Were Milley to alert China of an impending secret assault. China would prepare and defend itself as one would expect. Thus killing, potentially, Americans that might otherwise not have died due to the element of surprise.

That, is what I find treasonous and unacceptable.
Except he didn't do any of that. He said, "hey our President is being a big baby right now. I know he just attacked his own country, but don't worry, we have the situation under control and adults are in charge now. We're going to make sure international order is upheld. You won't be attacked."

The fact that China or Milley or anyone else was worried Trump may get us into a conflict with China is the issue.

It's a testament to our government that the mechanisms continued to churn despite January 6 and the President abdicating his responsibilities because of a tantrum. Pence, Pelosi, McConnell, Milley, Governors, judges, among others took over the reigns and pushed aside what could have become a worse situation.
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Re: China

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I'll just say that I'm not buying the story about Milley. When both Trump and Grenell come out and cast doubt, you have to wonder what is going on.

Seems there is conflict among the two major groups in our Government. State Dept and CIA vs Whitehouse, Pentagon and NSC. Now throw in the tidbit about one of our Five Eye partners intercepting the calls and this becomes the usual diversion tactic in my opinion.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:29 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 am
So pseudo-Progressives are a lot like MAGAts in that regard. MAGAts truly believe the election was stolen and certification of the election unethical. As a result, they shouldn't have to follow rules/laws regarding that election.

This is a bunch of sanctimonious bullcrap - both pseudo-progressives and MAGAts believe they can break the rules because their cause is righteous but if the other side breaks the rules they're traitorous.

What's it feel like to be mirror images of BDKaren and CG?
Oh cry me a river. :lol:

Sometimes one side is wrong. :nod:
Each side thinks they're right and the other is wrong. What if you're both wrong?
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:38 am
kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:29 am

Oh cry me a river. :lol:

Sometimes one side is wrong. :nod:
Each side thinks they're right and the other is wrong. What if you're both wrong?
I don’t have a political side when it comes to American politics.
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Re: China

Post by GannonFan »

So if a general, on their own, decides that they don't think Biden is right in the head anymore, that the evidence of diminished rational thinking is too great to ignore, and they go ahead and start contacting foreign entities that everything goes through that general and ignore what the President says or does, then that's okay too?

I get it that Trump is anathema, but the Constitution is pretty clear on how we handle a person we don't think is suitable for the Office.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:56 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:38 am
Each side thinks they're right and the other is wrong. What if you're both wrong?
I don’t have a political side when it comes to American politics.
Good. Maybe we can finally move past the "what they did was worse so let's focus on their transgressions" and hold all wrong-doers accountable.
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

Jesus, Trip's logical circles are really hard to follow today. :suspicious: :suspicious:
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:56 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:38 am

Each side thinks they're right and the other is wrong. What if you're both wrong?
I don’t have a political side when it comes to American politics.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:10 am I'll just say that I'm not buying the story about Milley. When both Trump and Grenell come out and cast doubt, you have to wonder what is going on.

Seems there is conflict among the two major groups in our Government. State Dept and CIA vs Whitehouse, Pentagon and NSC. Now throw in the tidbit about one of our Five Eye partners intercepting the calls and this becomes the usual diversion tactic in my opinion.
Of course Trump and a supporter of his are going to cast doubt - that isn't why you should take it with a grain of salt. :lol:
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Re: China

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:44 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:10 am I'll just say that I'm not buying the story about Milley. When both Trump and Grenell come out and cast doubt, you have to wonder what is going on.

Seems there is conflict among the two major groups in our Government. State Dept and CIA vs Whitehouse, Pentagon and NSC. Now throw in the tidbit about one of our Five Eye partners intercepting the calls and this becomes the usual diversion tactic in my opinion.
Of course Trump and a supporter of his are going to cast doubt - that isn't why you should take it with a grain of salt. :lol:
Why would Trump and Grenell cast doubt that Milley committed treason? Seems Trump was saying the authors were known for outlandish stories.
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