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Re: China

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:33 pm

I don't think 4 more years of Trump would have been the worst thing in the world. The constant attacks from the pseudo-progressive left would have been a distracting pain the azz but a divided Congress would have kept him from doing any real damage. I'm grateful for Manchin and Sinema for giving us some semblance of that with the present administration.
Same. :nod:

Though sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off letting the pendulum swing just so people get a taste of what they are wishing for. But then again, it is probably best if we don't.
Would he have made any significant changes or are the challenges we seemingly face just not that big of a deal?
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:59 pm
Winterborn wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Same. :nod:

Though sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off letting the pendulum swing just so people get a taste of what they are wishing for. But then again, it is probably best if we don't.
Would he have made any significant changes or are the challenges we seemingly face just not that big of a deal?
What “challenges” are those? Most of the challenges we currently face are self inflicted wounds from Biden administration policies.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:43 am
kalm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:59 pm

Would he have made any significant changes or are the challenges we seemingly face just not that big of a deal?
What “challenges” are those? Most of the challenges we currently face are self inflicted wounds from Biden administration policies.
Everything was fine. A year ago.....
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Re: China

Post by andy7171 »

kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:22 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:43 am

What “challenges” are those? Most of the challenges we currently face are self inflicted wounds from Biden administration policies.
Everything was fine. A year ago.....
No. But everything he was saying is now all of a sudden true.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

andy7171 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:30 am
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:22 am

Everything was fine. A year ago.....
No. But everything he was saying is now all of a sudden true.
Who was saying?
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Re: China

Post by andy7171 »

He, who shall be nameless and never spoken of again.
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Re: China

Post by Winterborn »


kalm wrote:
Winterborn wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm Same. :nod:

Though sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off letting the pendulum swing just so people get a taste of what they are wishing for. But then again, it is probably best if we don't.
Would he have made any significant changes or are the challenges we seemingly face just not that big of a deal?
What challenges?

What I was discussing with '88 were foreign policy decisions and a good part of which are from the 70/80's policies. We are just reaping the side effects of those choices now.

As for here at home, extremes on both sides are bad but the problem is that people advocating for them don't realize what the consequences will be from trying to implement their "utopia".
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:47 pm
kalm wrote:
Would he have made any significant changes or are the challenges we seemingly face just not that big of a deal?
What challenges?

What I was discussing with '88 were foreign policy decisions and a good part of which are from the 70/80's policies. We are just reaping the side effects of those choices now.

As for here at home, extremes on both sides are bad but the problem is that people advocating for them don't realize what the consequences will be from trying to implement their "utopia".
No disagreement on any of this. Globalization (once championed by most of the right and centrist Dems alike is biting us in the ass.

As for extreme remedies, our system has a tendency to soften those. It’s one of the few good parts and perhaps THE important part of duality.

Of course much of the argument is based on where the center is. It’s a moving baseline.
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Re: China

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:14 pm
Winterborn wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:47 pm

What challenges?

What I was discussing with '88 were foreign policy decisions and a good part of which are from the 70/80's policies. We are just reaping the side effects of those choices now.

As for here at home, extremes on both sides are bad but the problem is that people advocating for them don't realize what the consequences will be from trying to implement their "utopia".
No disagreement on any of this. Globalization (once championed by most of the right and centrist Dems alike is biting us in the ass.

As for extreme remedies, our system has a tendency to soften those. It’s one of the few good parts and perhaps THE important part of duality.

Of course much of the argument is based on where the center is. It’s a moving baseline.
Globalization is never going to go away and will be with us forever. The question is what it looks like and what form it takes. The question isn't whether we have globalization or not, it's a question of what it looks like. We can't raise the drawbridges and ignore the rest of the world. We're not New Zealand.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:14 pm
Winterborn wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:47 pm
What challenges?

What I was discussing with '88 were foreign policy decisions and a good part of which are from the 70/80's policies. We are just reaping the side effects of those choices now.

As for here at home, extremes on both sides are bad but the problem is that people advocating for them don't realize what the consequences will be from trying to implement their "utopia".
No disagreement on any of this. Globalization (once championed by most of the right and centrist Dems alike is biting us in the ass.

As for extreme remedies, our system has a tendency to soften those. It’s one of the few good parts and perhaps THE important part of duality.

Of course much of the argument is based on where the center is. It’s a moving baseline.
There have been a lot of benefits to globalization - a world of nations that are dependent upon each other is a world that has better prospects for peace. IMO, the challenges we face due to globalization are less than the challenges we would be facing without it.

Our system has a tendency to soften the extremes because of the bipartisanship, a romantic concept that is under attack by extremists in both parties. The leading advocates of bipartisanship are politicians such as Manchin, Sinema, Kinzinger, etc. Getting rid of the filibuster will reduce our ability to "soften the extremes."
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Re: China

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:14 pm

No disagreement on any of this. Globalization (once championed by most of the right and centrist Dems alike is biting us in the ass.

As for extreme remedies, our system has a tendency to soften those. It’s one of the few good parts and perhaps THE important part of duality.

Of course much of the argument is based on where the center is. It’s a moving baseline.
There have been a lot of benefits to globalization - a world of nations that are dependent upon each other is a world that has better prospects for peace. IMO, the challenges we face due to globalization are less than the challenges we would be facing without it.

Our system has a tendency to soften the extremes because of the bipartisanship, a romantic concept that is under attack by extremists in both parties. The leading advocates of bipartisanship are politicians such as Manchin, Sinema, Kinzinger, etc. Getting rid of the filibuster will reduce our ability to "soften the extremes."
:nod:
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:14 pm

No disagreement on any of this. Globalization (once championed by most of the right and centrist Dems alike is biting us in the ass.

As for extreme remedies, our system has a tendency to soften those. It’s one of the few good parts and perhaps THE important part of duality.

Of course much of the argument is based on where the center is. It’s a moving baseline.
There have been a lot of benefits to globalization - a world of nations that are dependent upon each other is a world that has better prospects for peace. IMO, the challenges we face due to globalization are less than the challenges we would be facing without it.

Our system has a tendency to soften the extremes because of the bipartisanship, a romantic concept that is under attack by extremists in both parties. The leading advocates of bipartisanship are politicians such as Manchin, Sinema, Kinzinger, etc. Getting rid of the filibuster will reduce our ability to "soften the extremes."
I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
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Re: China

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 pm

There have been a lot of benefits to globalization - a world of nations that are dependent upon each other is a world that has better prospects for peace. IMO, the challenges we face due to globalization are less than the challenges we would be facing without it.

Our system has a tendency to soften the extremes because of the bipartisanship, a romantic concept that is under attack by extremists in both parties. The leading advocates of bipartisanship are politicians such as Manchin, Sinema, Kinzinger, etc. Getting rid of the filibuster will reduce our ability to "soften the extremes."
I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
Eh, you could also argue that our strengths in resources and manufacturing have been shown in Covid as well. Aren't we awash in vaccines now here in the US, almost to an embarrassing level? We haven't wanted for vaccines since about the middle of April - since then, anyone eligible who wanted one would be able to get one, and not even with a whole lot of effort. That's pretty impressive when you think about it. We had a virus that within 9 months we had more than one vaccine developed that pretty much eradicates the risk of the virus, and 4 months after that we had ramped up manufacturing so quickly that we don't know what to do with all the extra doses. No other country in the world could do, or did, what we did on the scale that we did - China has vaccines that don't work, Europe can't make enough vaccines quick enough, and even developed places like Japan or Canada or other places struggle to get enough vaccines since they can't make them.

Our shortcomings, when it came down to it, where political and social - we have two political parties dominated on both sides by political zealots whose common singular goal is to beat the other party - what they do with winning governmental power is secondary, the primary goal is to win. And we have a populace and sadly a compliant media that have abandoned their principles and joined in the political fray.

But don't let that messy response to the virus and the political bickering that associated it get in the way of the impressive end result - we conquered an engineered virus (and let's be honest, everyone should be aware that the virus came from that lab - China is complicit because they let a shoddy lab exist, and the US is complicit because we were funneling money to that lab because ethically that kind of work wouldn't fly in the US), and we beat that virus in the span of about a year. Again, no other country on the planet could do what we just did. That's pretty cool when you think about it.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 pm
I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
Eh, you could also argue that our strengths in resources and manufacturing have been shown in Covid as well. Aren't we awash in vaccines now here in the US, almost to an embarrassing level? We haven't wanted for vaccines since about the middle of April - since then, anyone eligible who wanted one would be able to get one, and not even with a whole lot of effort. That's pretty impressive when you think about it. We had a virus that within 9 months we had more than one vaccine developed that pretty much eradicates the risk of the virus, and 4 months after that we had ramped up manufacturing so quickly that we don't know what to do with all the extra doses. No other country in the world could do, or did, what we did on the scale that we did - China has vaccines that don't work, Europe can't make enough vaccines quick enough, and even developed places like Japan or Canada or other places struggle to get enough vaccines since they can't make them.

Our shortcomings, when it came down to it, where political and social - we have two political parties dominated on both sides by political zealots whose common singular goal is to beat the other party - what they do with winning governmental power is secondary, the primary goal is to win. And we have a populace and sadly a compliant media that have abandoned their principles and joined in the political fray.

But don't let that messy response to the virus and the political bickering that associated it get in the way of the impressive end result - we conquered an engineered virus (and let's be honest, everyone should be aware that the virus came from that lab - China is complicit because they let a shoddy lab exist, and the US is complicit because we were funneling money to that lab because ethically that kind of work wouldn't fly in the US), and we beat that virus in the span of about a year. Again, no other country on the planet could do what we just did. That's pretty cool when you think about it.
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Re: China

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kalm wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 pm There have been a lot of benefits to globalization - a world of nations that are dependent upon each other is a world that has better prospects for peace. IMO, the challenges we face due to globalization are less than the challenges we would be facing without it.

Our system has a tendency to soften the extremes because of the bipartisanship, a romantic concept that is under attack by extremists in both parties. The leading advocates of bipartisanship are politicians such as Manchin, Sinema, Kinzinger, etc. Getting rid of the filibuster will reduce our ability to "soften the extremes."
I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
You almost made me wet with “strategic resources” but no cigar for you

The term is “strategic industries”


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Re: China

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Can I ask a question that’s been bothering me for some time?

Why, on God’s green earth, would we spend time and money on Gain of Function research? Why in the WORLD would we want to try and make viruses MORE powerful? There’s only one reason I can think of, and to think that we were in bed with the Chinese on this and then they dumped it on us?

Seriously, how fucking stupid are we?
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:12 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm

Eh, you could also argue that our strengths in resources and manufacturing have been shown in Covid as well. Aren't we awash in vaccines now here in the US, almost to an embarrassing level? We haven't wanted for vaccines since about the middle of April - since then, anyone eligible who wanted one would be able to get one, and not even with a whole lot of effort. That's pretty impressive when you think about it. We had a virus that within 9 months we had more than one vaccine developed that pretty much eradicates the risk of the virus, and 4 months after that we had ramped up manufacturing so quickly that we don't know what to do with all the extra doses. No other country in the world could do, or did, what we did on the scale that we did - China has vaccines that don't work, Europe can't make enough vaccines quick enough, and even developed places like Japan or Canada or other places struggle to get enough vaccines since they can't make them.

Our shortcomings, when it came down to it, where political and social - we have two political parties dominated on both sides by political zealots whose common singular goal is to beat the other party - what they do with winning governmental power is secondary, the primary goal is to win. And we have a populace and sadly a compliant media that have abandoned their principles and joined in the political fray.

But don't let that messy response to the virus and the political bickering that associated it get in the way of the impressive end result - we conquered an engineered virus (and let's be honest, everyone should be aware that the virus came from that lab - China is complicit because they let a shoddy lab exist, and the US is complicit because we were funneling money to that lab because ethically that kind of work wouldn't fly in the US), and we beat that virus in the span of about a year. Again, no other country on the planet could do what we just did. That's pretty cool when you think about it.
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In your exuberance to see me proven wrong I suppose you didn’t stop to think I might agree with Ganny’s post. It’s indeed one instance where our capabilities helped. Not just in manufacturing but logistics, research, funding of research etc.

Irregardless (that one is for CID :) ) supply chain issues are real and will be with us for years to come. Some of it is relatively inconsequential like my son battling Bitcoin mining for a microchip to run his now massively over-priced video card but it has also crept into cell phones and other key industries...and try buying a new truck right now.

We’ll get through it but not without some impacts. Btw, the off-shoring of virus research, while admittedly created by multiple factors, also helps prove my point that we’re better off with domestic control of certain things.

‘Fuck the Chicomms...!.....except when it comes to cheap labor and less regulations’ of course.

Why do you hate Made in America?

Fucking commies. :ohno:
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:05 pm
kalm wrote:
I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
You almost made me wet with “strategic resources” but no cigar for you

The term is “strategic industries”


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Ugh! I denounce and reject myself over that one.

I was thinking about a customer who used to sell lumber to China and wondering at the logic and sustainability of shipping a tree from the Panhandle National Forest across an ocean to manufacture a nightstand and then shipping it back across the same ocean to sell it for those super sweet low prices found at Walmart.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 pm Can I ask a question that’s been bothering me for some time?

Why, on God’s green earth, would we spend time and money on Gain of Function research? Why in the WORLD would we want to try and make viruses MORE powerful? There’s only one reason I can think of, and to think that we were in bed with the Chinese on this and then they dumped it on us?

Seriously, how fucking stupid are we?
My guess is that SARS 1 freaked the researchers the fuck out. Different schools of thought developed for fighting the next possibly more catastrophic bug. The Fauci group believed the best tactic was to get to know the enemy by playing with it in a lab. China may have been prepared to do this on their own but we funded it, fucked around, and found out.
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:12 pm
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In your exuberance to see me proven wrong I suppose you didn’t stop to think I might agree with Ganny’s post. It’s indeed one instance where our capabilities helped. Not just in manufacturing but logistics, research, funding of research etc.

Irregardless (that one is for CID :) ) supply chain issues are real and will be with us for years to come. Some of it is relatively inconsequential like my son battling Bitcoin mining for a microchip to run his now massively over-priced video card but it has also crept into cell phones and other key industries...and try buying a new truck right now.

We’ll get through it but not without some impacts. Btw, the off-shoring of virus research, while admittedly created by multiple factors, also helps prove my point that we’re better off with domestic control of certain things.

‘Fuck the Chicomms...!.....except when it comes to cheap labor and less regulations’ of course.

Why do you hate Made in America?

Fucking commies. :ohno:
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Re: China

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:30 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 pm Can I ask a question that’s been bothering me for some time?

Why, on God’s green earth, would we spend time and money on Gain of Function research? Why in the WORLD would we want to try and make viruses MORE powerful? There’s only one reason I can think of, and to think that we were in bed with the Chinese on this and then they dumped it on us?

Seriously, how fucking stupid are we?
My guess is that SARS 1 freaked the researchers the fuck out. Different schools of thought developed for fighting the next possibly more catastrophic bug. The Fauci group believed the best tactic was to get to know the enemy by playing with it in a lab. China may have been prepared to do this on their own but we funded it, fucked around, and found out.
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of sci-fi books and movies with this kind of premise as the plot line - scientists for whatever reasons (sometimes good, they want to eradicate disease, sometimes bad, they want to create a weapon, and many times in between) tinker with a natural virus, end up making it significantly worse (more contagious, more deadly, kinda like making the flu into COVID or something like that), and then lose control of it and it ends up in the population. Heck, isn't that how "The Stand" started? I think it's a testament to our political quagmire and to the lack of integrity and professionalism in our media today that a guy like Fauci hasn't had to be far more forthcoming on the details of his involvement, and that there hasn't been more looking into why there was so much US-based funding of the Wuhan Lab.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am
kalm wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 am

In your exuberance to see me proven wrong I suppose you didn’t stop to think I might agree with Ganny’s post. It’s indeed one instance where our capabilities helped. Not just in manufacturing but logistics, research, funding of research etc.

Irregardless (that one is for CID :) ) supply chain issues are real and will be with us for years to come. Some of it is relatively inconsequential like my son battling Bitcoin mining for a microchip to run his now massively over-priced video card but it has also crept into cell phones and other key industries...and try buying a new truck right now.

We’ll get through it but not without some impacts. Btw, the off-shoring of virus research, while admittedly created by multiple factors, also helps prove my point that we’re better off with domestic control of certain things.

‘Fuck the Chicomms...!.....except when it comes to cheap labor and less regulations’ of course.

Why do you hate Made in America?

Fucking commies. :ohno:
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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 pm

I agree with Ganny here in general. It’s the right globalization that mutually benefits all partners. But there’s something to be said for strategic resources and manufacturing and our shortcomings have been highlighted by Covid. That may continue for years as developing nations continue to struggle more with the virus.
Eh, you could also argue that our strengths in resources and manufacturing have been shown in Covid as well. Aren't we awash in vaccines now here in the US, almost to an embarrassing level? We haven't wanted for vaccines since about the middle of April - since then, anyone eligible who wanted one would be able to get one, and not even with a whole lot of effort. That's pretty impressive when you think about it. We had a virus that within 9 months we had more than one vaccine developed that pretty much eradicates the risk of the virus, and 4 months after that we had ramped up manufacturing so quickly that we don't know what to do with all the extra doses. No other country in the world could do, or did, what we did on the scale that we did - China has vaccines that don't work, Europe can't make enough vaccines quick enough, and even developed places like Japan or Canada or other places struggle to get enough vaccines since they can't make them.

Our shortcomings, when it came down to it, where political and social - we have two political parties dominated on both sides by political zealots whose common singular goal is to beat the other party - what they do with winning governmental power is secondary, the primary goal is to win. And we have a populace and sadly a compliant media that have abandoned their principles and joined in the political fray.

But don't let that messy response to the virus and the political bickering that associated it get in the way of the impressive end result - we conquered an engineered virus (and let's be honest, everyone should be aware that the virus came from that lab - China is complicit because they let a shoddy lab exist, and the US is complicit because we were funneling money to that lab because ethically that kind of work wouldn't fly in the US), and we beat that virus in the span of about a year. Again, no other country on the planet could do what we just did. That's pretty cool when you think about it.
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Re: China

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kalm wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:23 am
CID1990 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:05 pm
You almost made me wet with “strategic resources” but no cigar for you

The term is “strategic industries”


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Ugh! I denounce and reject myself over that one.

I was thinking about a customer who used to sell lumber to China and wondering at the logic and sustainability of shipping a tree from the Panhandle National Forest across an ocean to manufacture a nightstand and then shipping it back across the same ocean to sell it for those super sweet low prices found at Walmart.
And that's just a piece of wood. The sad/scary part is we do the same to process meat. MEAT. :?
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Re: China

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GannonFan wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:53 am
kalm wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:30 am

My guess is that SARS 1 freaked the researchers the fuck out. Different schools of thought developed for fighting the next possibly more catastrophic bug. The Fauci group believed the best tactic was to get to know the enemy by playing with it in a lab. China may have been prepared to do this on their own but we funded it, fucked around, and found out.
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of sci-fi books and movies with this kind of premise as the plot line - scientists for whatever reasons (sometimes good, they want to eradicate disease, sometimes bad, they want to create a weapon, and many times in between) tinker with a natural virus, end up making it significantly worse (more contagious, more deadly, kinda like making the flu into COVID or something like that), and then lose control of it and it ends up in the population. Heck, isn't that how "The Stand" started? I think it's a testament to our political quagmire and to the lack of integrity and professionalism in our media today that a guy like Fauci hasn't had to be far more forthcoming on the details of his involvement, and that there hasn't been more looking into why there was so much US-based funding of the Wuhan Lab.
I'm just waiting for a zombie virus (see 28 Days Later) to break loose. Dear God, please happen...
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