Deregulation

Political discussions
Post Reply
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 18879
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Deregulation

Post by JohnStOnge »

I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere but I think it deserves its own threat. I think what happened to Texas with the historic 2021 winter storm is a poster child scenario for those warning against haphazard deregulation. Here is one article on it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/21/us/t ... kouts.html

Here's a take by a Texas new organization:

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/17 ... -failures/

Regulations are often in place to prevent low-probability, worst case scenarios from unfolding. Deregulation sounds great until the low probability, worst case scenario occurs. My bet is we are about to see a demand for a lot more regulation of the electricity providers in Texas.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 14940
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Deregulation

Post by GannonFan »

Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation. There were and are plenty of regulations in Texas as they relate to the power grid, power generation, etc. However, the regulations weren't written well enough to guard against the scenario that happened. Basically, there was no incentive via the regulations for energy providers of any kind (green, not green, fossil fuel, nuclear, etc) to be able to provide electricity in an extreme cold scenario. It was cheaper for them simply not to provide electricity. That's how the regulations were written and that's what happened. There are always going to be regulations, whether people pursue deregulation or not. The important thing is to have the least amount of regulations with the maximum amount of coverage via those regulations. Having none or having a bunch of regulations doesn't do anyone any good if they're not written well.
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 48367
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Deregulation

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation. There were and are plenty of regulations in Texas as they relate to the power grid, power generation, etc. However, the regulations weren't written well enough to guard against the scenario that happened. Basically, there was no incentive via the regulations for energy providers of any kind (green, not green, fossil fuel, nuclear, etc) to be able to provide electricity in an extreme cold scenario. It was cheaper for them simply not to provide electricity. That's how the regulations were written and that's what happened. There are always going to be regulations, whether people pursue deregulation or not. The important thing is to have the least amount of regulations with the maximum amount of coverage via those regulations. Having none or having a bunch of regulations doesn't do anyone any good if they're not written well.
Agree but deregulation literally means the removal of regulation. No wait..."defund" the police means removing the police?

The takeaway for libertarian/limited government types in much of this should be "careful what you wish for". We're about to see a huge increase in the size of government and regulation. Because to some, deregulation has no unintended consequences...until it does. Same goes for over-regulation

Deregulation is a part of the "free" market Ayn Rand mythos is what I think JSO is driving at.
Image
Image
Image
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 11667
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Deregulation

Post by ∞∞∞ »

The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...

...lady was a generally miserable person. :lol:
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 55277
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Deregulation

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...

...lady was a generally miserable person. :lol:
Most of those I agree with her on. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 10415
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
A.K.A.: Unification88
Location: Fence Sitter & Ball-Sack Splitter

Re: Deregulation

Post by UNI88 »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...

...lady was a generally miserable person. :lol:
Most of those I agree with her on. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
Marxism by it's nature is a collectivist movement so Marxists aren't being hypocrites when they organize.
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 11667
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Deregulation

Post by ∞∞∞ »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...

...lady was a generally miserable person. :lol:
Most of those I agree with her on. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
I'll even cite it for you:
All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists; but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.
-Ayn Rand. Ford Hall Forum, 1971.
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 55277
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Deregulation

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:11 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm

Most of those I agree with her on. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
I'll even cite it for you:
All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists; but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.
-Ayn Rand. Ford Hall Forum, 1971.
I guess if you take libertarianism to it’s logical extreme of NO government, that makes them anarchists. Most “l”ibertarians, however, mere want LESS government, less intrusion, less regulation, etc., etc. Only the absolute fringe of the fringe wants “no” government.

Still don’t see hw that makes them collectivists. Nor do I see how it makes them hippies. I don’t want, need, or expect my government to “save me”. Does that make me a hippie?

Edit: and nice work on the citation. Maybe you ARE trainable.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 18879
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: Deregulation

Post by JohnStOnge »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation.
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.

Look at the information at https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -list.html .

There are a lot of things there such that your opinion might depend on how concerned you are about Climate change. But there are also a number of things that are in the "What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this" category. One example is:
Doubled the time allowed for utilities to remove lead pipes from water systems with high levels of lead.
But there are others. There are a number of things such that it's quite possible that history will say, "That was a bad move."
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 14940
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Deregulation

Post by GannonFan »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation.
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 18879
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: Deregulation

Post by JohnStOnge »

GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm

No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
It's not just that they weren't well written. They reflected a certain philosophy.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 55277
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Deregulation

Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am

And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
It's not just that they weren't well written. They reflected a certain philosophy.
Show me a regulation written in our lifetimes that doesn’t “reflect a certain philosophy”.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
Post Reply