Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

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Re: RE: Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby SeattleGriz » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:23 pm

Grizalltheway wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
It's Royce Engstrom's fault.

On the bright side, we do have Idaho back. Now they just need to get a lot better.

Fixed
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:42 pm

kalm wrote:This is really just a debate between traditional powers/dynasties vs. new powers/dynasties, one in which you're failing at badly. :nod:

You'd prefer the old and are shaking your fist from you lawn. I'm thinking this is one of the more exciting years we've had in the FCS for quite awhile.

GFY kalm. Coastal and ODU are traditional powers. :dunce:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Pwns » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:55 pm

You know what really makes me think more than anything the FCS isn't what is used to be? Consider coaching records.

Chris Klieman has a 63-6 coaching record. That's a 10:1 ratio of wins to losses.
Craig Bohl had a three-year run where he was 43-2. That's a 20:1 ratio (!) of wins.
Meanwhile, at JMU Mike Houston is 34-5 (about 7:1 ratio), and what, 2 of those losses are to Power 5 teams. I think he's basically lost to 1 FCS team not named NDSU.

Just for comparison, Nick Saban has just over a 6:1 ratio of wins to losses.

Now go and think through all of the other great coaches that have come up through the FCS over the years ... Roy Kidd, Erk Russell, Jim Tressel, Don Read, Tubby Raymond, Paul Johnson, and Jerry Moore. None of them have the winning percentage to match any of those 3.

Are the three aforementioned coaches from NDSU and JMU really better than all of those? Have the three best FCS coaches ever simply all come in the same era? Occam's Razor says not very likely at all, especially considering Bohl can go to Wyoming and look pretty average by the standard of Wyoming coaches.

Now I do think the FCS has been hurt from the departures, but that's not the only problem. I do agree with 93 and 89 that all of this year's CAA teams would probably be middle-of-the-pack CAA teams in the late '00s (with or without ODU).
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:41 am

Pwns wrote:You know what really makes me think more than anything the FCS isn't what is used to be? Consider coaching records.

Chris Klieman has a 63-6 coaching record. That's a 10:1 ratio of wins to losses.
Craig Bohl had a three-year run where he was 43-2. That's a 20:1 ratio (!) of wins.
Meanwhile, at JMU Mike Houston is 34-5 (about 7:1 ratio), and what, 2 of those losses are to Power 5 teams. I think he's basically lost to 1 FCS team not named NDSU.

Just for comparison, Nick Saban has just over a 6:1 ratio of wins to losses.

Now go and think through all of the other great coaches that have come up through the FCS over the years ... Roy Kidd, Erk Russell, Jim Tressel, Don Read, Tubby Raymond, Paul Johnson, and Jerry Moore. None of them have the winning percentage to match any of those 3.

Are the three aforementioned coaches from NDSU and JMU really better than all of those? Have the three best FCS coaches ever simply all come in the same era? Occam's Razor says not very likely at all, especially considering Bohl can go to Wyoming and look pretty average by the standard of Wyoming coaches.

Now I do think the FCS has been hurt from the departures, but that's not the only problem. I do agree with 93 and 89 that all of this year's CAA teams would probably be middle-of-the-pack CAA teams in the late '00s (with or without ODU).


NDSU started winning championships when Klieman joined in 2011 and improved on the defensive side of the ball. It took Bohl several years at NDSU to get them to where they were in 2011. Bohl was the great recruiter, and Klieman the defensive coach that got them there. Of the coaches mentioned above, how many had great success at the next level? Tressel? I agree that the CAA is down compared to it's little streak before EWU and NDSU came along. 2016 & 17 JMU could have won or completed with any CAA champ in the last 20 years.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:26 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
Pwns wrote:You know what really makes me think more than anything the FCS isn't what is used to be? Consider coaching records.

Chris Klieman has a 63-6 coaching record. That's a 10:1 ratio of wins to losses.
Craig Bohl had a three-year run where he was 43-2. That's a 20:1 ratio (!) of wins.
Meanwhile, at JMU Mike Houston is 34-5 (about 7:1 ratio), and what, 2 of those losses are to Power 5 teams. I think he's basically lost to 1 FCS team not named NDSU.

Just for comparison, Nick Saban has just over a 6:1 ratio of wins to losses.

Now go and think through all of the other great coaches that have come up through the FCS over the years ... Roy Kidd, Erk Russell, Jim Tressel, Don Read, Tubby Raymond, Paul Johnson, and Jerry Moore. None of them have the winning percentage to match any of those 3.

Are the three aforementioned coaches from NDSU and JMU really better than all of those? Have the three best FCS coaches ever simply all come in the same era? Occam's Razor says not very likely at all, especially considering Bohl can go to Wyoming and look pretty average by the standard of Wyoming coaches.

Now I do think the FCS has been hurt from the departures, but that's not the only problem. I do agree with 93 and 89 that all of this year's CAA teams would probably be middle-of-the-pack CAA teams in the late '00s (with or without ODU).


NDSU started winning championships when Klieman joined in 2011 and improved on the defensive side of the ball. It took Bohl several years at NDSU to get them to where they were in 2011. Bohl was the great recruiter, and Klieman the defensive coach that got them there. Of the coaches mentioned above, how many had great success at the next level? Tressel? I agree that the CAA is down compared to it's little streak before EWU and NDSU came along. 2016 & 17 JMU could have won or completed with any CAA champ in the last 20 years.


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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:33 am

Pwns wrote:You know what really makes me think more than anything the FCS isn't what is used to be? Consider coaching records.

Chris Klieman has a 63-6 coaching record. That's a 10:1 ratio of wins to losses.
Craig Bohl had a three-year run where he was 43-2. That's a 20:1 ratio (!) of wins.
Meanwhile, at JMU Mike Houston is 34-5 (about 7:1 ratio), and what, 2 of those losses are to Power 5 teams. I think he's basically lost to 1 FCS team not named NDSU.

Just for comparison, Nick Saban has just over a 6:1 ratio of wins to losses.

Now go and think through all of the other great coaches that have come up through the FCS over the years ... Roy Kidd, Erk Russell, Jim Tressel, Don Read, Tubby Raymond, Paul Johnson, and Jerry Moore. None of them have the winning percentage to match any of those 3.

Are the three aforementioned coaches from NDSU and JMU really better than all of those? Have the three best FCS coaches ever simply all come in the same era? Occam's Razor says not very likely at all, especially considering Bohl can go to Wyoming and look pretty average by the standard of Wyoming coaches.

Now I do think the FCS has been hurt from the departures, but that's not the only problem. I do agree with 93 and 89 that all of this year's CAA teams would probably be middle-of-the-pack CAA teams in the late '00s (with or without ODU).


Yeah that's a pretty big stretch of a comparison and a small sample size compared to the others.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby DMoo531 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:28 am

I blame Montana

Why MT? I realize they have been to the playoffs more than anyone, and they've taken last place more than anyone. Granted they rarely put together a team like the '96 Griz, but who but NDSU has?

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Grizalltheway » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:18 am

DMoo531 wrote:I blame Montana

Why MT? I realize they have been to the playoffs more than anyone, and they've taken last place more than anyone. Granted they rarely put together a team like the '96 Griz, but who but NDSU has?

What the **** are you on about, moron? :lol:

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Pwns » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:27 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
Pwns wrote:You know what really makes me think more than anything the FCS isn't what is used to be? Consider coaching records.

Chris Klieman has a 63-6 coaching record. That's a 10:1 ratio of wins to losses.
Craig Bohl had a three-year run where he was 43-2. That's a 20:1 ratio (!) of wins.
Meanwhile, at JMU Mike Houston is 34-5 (about 7:1 ratio), and what, 2 of those losses are to Power 5 teams. I think he's basically lost to 1 FCS team not named NDSU.

Just for comparison, Nick Saban has just over a 6:1 ratio of wins to losses.

Now go and think through all of the other great coaches that have come up through the FCS over the years ... Roy Kidd, Erk Russell, Jim Tressel, Don Read, Tubby Raymond, Paul Johnson, and Jerry Moore. None of them have the winning percentage to match any of those 3.

Are the three aforementioned coaches from NDSU and JMU really better than all of those? Have the three best FCS coaches ever simply all come in the same era? Occam's Razor says not very likely at all, especially considering Bohl can go to Wyoming and look pretty average by the standard of Wyoming coaches.

Now I do think the FCS has been hurt from the departures, but that's not the only problem. I do agree with 93 and 89 that all of this year's CAA teams would probably be middle-of-the-pack CAA teams in the late '00s (with or without ODU).


NDSU started winning championships when Klieman joined in 2011 and improved on the defensive side of the ball. It took Bohl several years at NDSU to get them to where they were in 2011. Bohl was the great recruiter, and Klieman the defensive coach that got them there. Of the coaches mentioned above, how many had great success at the next level? Tressel? I agree that the CAA is down compared to it's little streak before EWU and NDSU came along. 2016 & 17 JMU could have won or completed with any CAA champ in the last 20 years.


Paul Johnson brought Navy out of irrelevancy and has won an ACC Championship and an Orange Bowl at Tech where it isn't easy to win. He's arguably a better coach than Bohl is. Most of the rest other than Tressel were at their last coaching stops before retirement. Neither Johnson nor Tressel have the same winning percentage in IAA as NDSU 2011-2018 or JMU 2016-2018. Erk Russell was arguably an even better coach than Johnson and even 1985-1989 with 3 national championships in that time his win percentage wasn't that high.

The idea that Klieman, Bohl, and Houston are the top 3 coaches in the subdivision all time is a really, really hard sell, but not when you look only at championships and records.

BTW, it's not just me saying this. Klieman himself has remarked on this subject.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby SeattleGriz » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:37 pm

Bobby Hauck was 80-17 during his first stint as UM coach (03-09).
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:54 pm

Pwns wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
NDSU started winning championships when Klieman joined in 2011 and improved on the defensive side of the ball. It took Bohl several years at NDSU to get them to where they were in 2011. Bohl was the great recruiter, and Klieman the defensive coach that got them there. Of the coaches mentioned above, how many had great success at the next level? Tressel? I agree that the CAA is down compared to it's little streak before EWU and NDSU came along. 2016 & 17 JMU could have won or completed with any CAA champ in the last 20 years.


Paul Johnson brought Navy out of irrelevancy and has won an ACC Championship and an Orange Bowl at Tech where it isn't easy to win. He's arguably a better coach than Bohl is. Most of the rest other than Tressel were at their last coaching stops before retirement. Neither Johnson nor Tressel have the same winning percentage in IAA as NDSU 2011-2018 or JMU 2016-2018. Erk Russell was arguably an even better coach than Johnson and even 1985-1989 with 3 national championships in that time his win percentage wasn't that high.

The idea that Klieman, Bohl, and Houston are the top 3 coaches in the subdivision all time is a really, really hard sell, but not when you look only at championships and records.

BTW, it's not just me saying this. Klieman himself has remarked on this subject.


You are the first person I ever heard mention Bohl, Klieman or Houston as the top 3 coaches in the subdivision all time. Bohl even had a losing season prior to the 2010 playoff season.

Needing more quality teams and saying FCS is down, is 2 different things. Klieman said it was a blow, but didn't say FCS was down.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Pwns wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
NDSU started winning championships when Klieman joined in 2011 and improved on the defensive side of the ball. It took Bohl several years at NDSU to get them to where they were in 2011. Bohl was the great recruiter, and Klieman the defensive coach that got them there. Of the coaches mentioned above, how many had great success at the next level? Tressel? I agree that the CAA is down compared to it's little streak before EWU and NDSU came along. 2016 & 17 JMU could have won or completed with any CAA champ in the last 20 years.


Paul Johnson brought Navy out of irrelevancy and has won an ACC Championship and an Orange Bowl at Tech where it isn't easy to win. He's arguably a better coach than Bohl is. Most of the rest other than Tressel were at their last coaching stops before retirement. Neither Johnson nor Tressel have the same winning percentage in IAA as NDSU 2011-2018 or JMU 2016-2018. Erk Russell was arguably an even better coach than Johnson and even 1985-1989 with 3 national championships in that time his win percentage wasn't that high.

The idea that Klieman, Bohl, and Houston are the top 3 coaches in the subdivision all time is a really, really hard sell, but not when you look only at championships and records.

BTW, it's not just me saying this. Klieman himself has remarked on this subject.


Read the last paragraph.
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