Brexit Thread

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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

Grizalltheway wrote:
SDHornet wrote: The irony of the Brexit issue is that the EU needs England more than England needs the EU. Most of the EU countries are "takers", while England and a couple others (Germany, France, and maybe someone else) carries most of the weight financially.

The last Theresa May deal failed because it essentially kept England in the EU without a seat at the table. It would have been disastrous for them if approved. No idea where it goes from here but it should be fun to watch.
You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.
Maybe initially, but then they will be free to make any trade deals they want with any other nation so long as they are within the WTO rules and regs. Seems like GB would be better in the long term without the EU dictating their trade deal details.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Skjellyfetti »

GannonFan wrote:
Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:
The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.
Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.
Was that really a pithy retort?

I think it's a good overview. I could have found an article that spoke with glowing language and ignored any problems associated with a negative income tax. But, I think that one does a good job looking at the strengths and weaknesses.

And, no I don't think it's a perfect solution. There is none. I think it's an interesting idea that came from the right.

Did I miss you suggesting a solution?
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by GannonFan »

Just proving again that politicians are really great at constantly re-using trite phrases and sayings, kinda like how people will rush to label something "Nazi" just to smear the other side. This is the same phrase Madeleine Albright used to smear any woman who dared to vote against Hillary in the last election, just tweaked this time for the Brexit debate.
European Council President Donald Tusk has spoken of a "special place in hell" for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47143135
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Skjellyfetti »

:lol:

Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal for a second time
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47547887

No Deal vote tomorrow.
Extension vote on Thursday.
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Re: Brexit Thread

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I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.
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Re: Brexit Thread

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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

SDHornet wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote: You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.
Maybe initially, but then they will be free to make any trade deals they want with any other nation so long as they are within the WTO rules and regs. Seems like GB would be better in the long term without the EU dictating their trade deal details.
Yep they will BOOM because they got out of that shitbox.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

JohnStOnge wrote:I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.
Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

SDHornet wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.
Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.
I think with Brexit we have a situation in which people who supported it and argued for voting for it were not honest with people about what it would entail. Or maybe they didn't think enough about what it would entail either. Either way I think the British people who voted for it generally did not understand what it would mean.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Brexit and Trumpism Have Failed Because Conservative Populism Is a Lie

“They will soon be calling me MR. BREXIT!,” announced Donald Trump in the summer of 2016. Before long, Trump was calling himself that, after appearing at a rally with Nigel Farage, one of its champions.

The association with Brexit burnished Trump’s self-styled (and utterly fabricated) reputation as a soothsayer. More importantly, the connection seemed to confirm that Trump represented something larger: a wave of conservative populism sweeping the Western world.

And yet the collapse of Brexit, yet again, reveals another, less flattering commonality. Conservative populism has utterly failed to translate the political impulses behind them into a plausible governing agenda. It is a visceral reaction against multiculturalism and modernity that has not only failed to produce concrete solutions for its supporters, but doesn’t even know what to ask for.

The political phenomenon of conservative populism has created a demand for philosophical treatises to justify it. The conservative intelligentsia has been engaged in a comic process of backfilling in high-minded arguments to support the rise of Trump. The pro-Trump media is dominated by lowbrow right-wing infotainment, like Fox News and Breitbart — media that are simple and accessible enough for Trump himself to enjoy.

But the vast apparatus of conservative intellectuals also needs essays and lectures pitched at a higher level, in order to sustain its own sense of elitism. There’s no need to raise millions of dollars for think tanks and endowed chairs if the party’s thought process begins and ends with Sean Hannity’s sock-puppet routine. The Journal of American Greatness was founded in 2016 for this specific purpose — defining a populist conservatism that would resemble whatever it is Trump is trying to do.

The right has put its finest minds to the task of turning its irritable mental gestures into something resembling ideas. Peter Berkowitz, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, delivered a lecture at the Manhattan Institute that was adapted for publication in the City Journal. Its theme, implicitly rebuking conservatives who might feel some discomfort with Trump’s vulgarity and open bigotry, was that conservatives have always made common cause with populists. Trump has declared, “I have a gut and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me.” Berkowitz restates Trump’s ethos more elegantly. “Conservatives have tended to recognize the unruliness of the passions and the limits of reason. They believe that recondite reflection and abstract theory tend to obscure practical matters; as a guide to politics, conservatives strongly prefer experience and practical wisdom,” he argues. “Burke allied with the people against ‘the political men of letters’ — the progressive public intellectuals of his day.”
Berkowitz builds his essay on the premise that the working class has become disaffected with “an imperious ruling elite.” Yet he offers nothing in the way of substance to flesh it out, gesturing only at familiar bromides (“individual freedom, limited government, free markets, robust civil society, and a strong America in the international arena”) as the eternal course.

He fails to acknowledge Trump won these voters in large part by distancing himself from the right, promising universal health care, lower prescription-drug prices, cracking down on Wall Street, ending the carried-interest loophole, and other ideologically unorthodox moves. But he has abandoned all these ideas in favor of a rehash of George W. Bush’s domestic agenda. This has helped persuade Republican legislators to overlook his misconduct, but taken a toll on Trump’s popularity.

The populist promises that set Trump apart during both the primary and the general election have simply failed to materialize. Trump’s budget, which proposes cuts to Medicare and Medicaid that he had famously pledged to oppose, is the latest evidence that he has simply defaulted to traditional movement conservatism.

Conservative populism has followed the same course in the United Kingdom and the United States. Right-wing politicians attached expansive promises to retrograde cultural panic to gain power, and once given a chance to follow through, have managed to deliver only the latter. These movements justified themselves as an authentic rebellion against the experts. The experts warned the promises were impossible. It turns out they knew what they were talking about.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/ ... ulism.html
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Re: Brexit Thread

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This is what happens when political parties allow the inmates to run the asylum.

It is beginning to happen on the left, as well.
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Re: Brexit Thread

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JohnStOnge wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.
I think with Brexit we have a situation in which people who supported it and argued for voting for it were not honest with people about what it would entail. Or maybe they didn't think enough about what it would entail either. Either way I think the British people who voted for it generally did not understand what it would mean.
Just like coon-asses who voted for Hillary didn’t know what it would mean.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Brexit and Trumpism Have Failed Because Conservative Populism Is a Lie...
Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
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Re: Brexit Thread

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∞∞∞ wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
Like the triumph of ISIS? That inevitable?
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
That's a ridiculous statement.

It is a lack of conservatism that is driving us into bankruptcy. Within your lifetime and maybe mine, our government (almost certainly a "progressive" one) is going to adopt inflationary fiscal policies, the world is going to stop trading in dollars, and the US is going to suffer badly (probably deservedly so)- and it is going to be because of a LACK of conservatism.

I suggest that instead of contributing to investment plans (which are going to be "progressively" devalued) that you put your retirement eggs in something real.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Winterborn »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
:shock: :? :ohno:

Rather than addressing this thought (as I am not sure it would do any good) I am going to walk down to Twin Peaks and enjoy a beer. :beer:
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

CID1990 wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
That's a ridiculous statement.

It is a lack of conservatism that is driving us into bankruptcy. Within your lifetime and maybe mine, our government (almost certainly a "progressive" one) is going to adopt inflationary fiscal policies, the world is going to stop trading in dollars, and the US is going to suffer badly (probably deservedly so)- and it is going to be because of a LACK of conservatism.

I suggest that instead of contributing to investment plans (which are going to be "progressively" devalued) that you put your retirement eggs in something real.
Aside from the fact that money is an imagined reality and societies shift from or remold these realities when they fail us, I'm talking about the failure of conservatism from its literal definition.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
That's a ridiculous statement.

It is a lack of conservatism that is driving us into bankruptcy. Within your lifetime and maybe mine, our government (almost certainly a "progressive" one) is going to adopt inflationary fiscal policies, the world is going to stop trading in dollars, and the US is going to suffer badly (probably deservedly so)- and it is going to be because of a LACK of conservatism.

I suggest that instead of contributing to investment plans (which are going to be "progressively" devalued) that you put your retirement eggs in something real.
Aside from the fact that money is an imagined reality and societies shift from or remold these realities when they fail us, I'm talking about the failure of conservatism from its literal definition.
I see

You are incorrect, but then you just have a different reality, I guess

There might even be a quantum explanation for it

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6130 ... e-reality/
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

JohnStOnge wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.
I think with Brexit we have a situation in which people who supported it and argued for voting for it were not honest with people about what it would entail. Or maybe they didn't think enough about what it would entail either. Either way I think the British people who voted for it generally did not understand what it would mean.
I think voting on whether or not to remain in the EU was pretty clear, how could it not be? Now understanding all the nuances and nitty gritty things that would be impacted probably wasn't fully known and probably still isn't, but even it was I doubt that the vote at that time would have been impacted by it.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

CID1990 wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Aside from the fact that money is an imagined reality and societies shift from or remold these realities when they fail us, I'm talking about the failure of conservatism from its literal definition.
I see

You are incorrect, but then you just have a different reality, I guess

There might even be a quantum explanation for it

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6130 ... e-reality/
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Brexit Thread

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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Conservatism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is progressive.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

Ivytalk wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
I think with Brexit we have a situation in which people who supported it and argued for voting for it were not honest with people about what it would entail. Or maybe they didn't think enough about what it would entail either. Either way I think the British people who voted for it generally did not understand what it would mean.
Just like coon-asses who voted for Hillary didn’t know what it would mean.
It would've mean pretty much status quo continuation of things as they were going without much disruption. If Hillary had gotten elected the economy would be pretty much in the same place as it is now. Our international relationships would be better. We as a nation would be more respected than we are now. We would've had two Center-Left Supreme Court Justices added to the Supreme Court instead of two Solid-Right Justices. And the Republican Party would not be as damaged as it is now in terms of credibility. The Federal budget deficit would probably be smaller. We would have someone qualified for the job in the President's position. And the person in the President's position would not be mentally ill.

The country would be better off right now if Hillary Clinton had been elected President. I prefer two Solid-Right Justices over two Center-Left ones but just about everything else would be as good or better as it is now if that were the case.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Ivytalk wrote: Just like coon-asses who voted for Hillary didn’t know what it would mean.
It would've mean pretty much status quo continuation of things as they were going without much disruption. If Hillary had gotten elected the economy would be pretty much in the same place as it is now. Our international relationships would be better. We as a nation would be more respected than we are now. We would've had two Center-Left Supreme Court Justices added to the Supreme Court instead of two Solid-Right Justices. And the Republican Party would not be as damaged as it is now in terms of credibility. The Federal budget deficit would probably be smaller. We would have someone qualified for the job in the President's position. And the person in the President's position would not be mentally ill.

The country would be better off right now if Hillary Clinton had been elected President. I prefer two Solid-Right Justices over two Center-Left ones but just about everything else would be as good or better as it is now if that were the case.
Baloney. With Cliton would have had:
1. 2 liberal SCOTUS judges instead of 2 conservative ones.
2. Numerous more liberal Circuit judges vs the conservative ones that Trump has nominated and have been confirmed or will be.
3. No tax cuts.
4. Softer on Illegal Immigration
5. Still have the Obamacare mandate.
6. No renegotiation of NAFTA (United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement).
7. Nothing being done about China (massive trade deficit with them, Chinese tarriffs on US goods, China manipulating their currency, China committ massive state sponsored economic espionage against the US). Clinton would have been doing the same as Bush and Obama- that is not a damn thing.
8. We’d still have the terrible Iran deal.
9. Wouldn’t have pulled out of the Paris Climate deal.
10. Wouldn’t have gotten deadbeat NATO countries to pledge to pay more.
11. Wouldn’t be pulling out of Syria
12. Wouldn’t have opened a dialogue with North Korea

Plus I don’t believe the stock market would be as high, or unemployment as low, if Clinton had won, but can’t prove that.
All of the above is just off the top of my head. There’s more..
Last edited by BDKJMU on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Re: Brexit Thread

Post by UNI88 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Progressivism/Liberalism/Socialism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is ambitious/greedy.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
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