It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

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It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby JohnStOnge » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:01 pm

I cringe very time I tune into the Heritage Bowl and hear them calling it the HBCU National Championship. It's not. There are 36 HBCU football programs and the Heritage Bowl is a game between the champions of two conferences with a combined 21 teams.

Probably the most obvious problem with calling it the HBCU national championship is Tennessee State. I realize it's unlikely in the near future but let's say Tennessee State playing out of the OVC wins the FCS national championship. How could one possibly then call the winner of the Heritage Bowl the HBCU national champion? Or what if Tennessee State doesn't win the FCS title but does well enough to finish ahead of anybody in the SWAC or MEAC in all the polls?

There's also the possibility that a D2 HBCU could be better than anybody in the SWAC or MEAC. Like what happens if a D2 HBCU wins the D2 national title? This year 5 D2s finished rated higher than North Carolina A&T did in the Massey Ratings.

It's just ridiculous to call that game a "National Championship" game.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 89Hen » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:07 am

JohnStOnge wrote:Massey Ratings

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 89Hen » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:12 am

I had an e-mail exchange with Mass **** years ago and told him that these computer rankings implode on themselves and he arrogantly told me I was wrong. Was I? One of the ratings systems used in Mass **** Ratings:

1 James Madison 14-0 66.32 36.73 35.93 10.71
2 North Dakota State 13-1 65.60 37.47 40.07 11.50
3 South Dakota State 11-3 57.64 45.30 37.00 23.93
4 South Dakota 8-5 52.18 42.03 38.15 26.46
5 Western Illinois 8-4 51.59 40.06 34.17 22.17
6 Northern Iowa 8-5 50.33 43.62 28.85 23.62
7 Youngstown State 6-5 50.00 40.14 29.73 18.18

8 Yale 9 1 47.74 31.84 34.50 15.60
9 Sam Houston State 12 2 47.58 30.71 43.29 31.21
10 Weber State 11 3 47.10 34.87 33.71 17.57
11 Illinois State 6 5 46.92 39.82 26.09 19.09
12 Central Arkansas 10 2 46.24 26.49 35.75 17.50
13 Princeton 5 5 44.96 31.13 38.20 26.50
14 Richmond 6 5 44.46 39.15 30.27 23.45
15 SUNY-Stony Brook 10 3 43.96 37.40 28.69 20.62
16 Jacksonville State 10 2 43.30 28.19 28.83 15.00
17 Delaware 7 4 43.20 38.56 19.91 16.18
18 Kennesaw State 12 2 42.92 28.05 30.07 15.50
19 Eastern Washington 7 4 42.82 37.90 34.45 33.36
20 Southern Utah 9 3 42.79 36.56 33.58 28.00
21 Furman 8 5 42.35 33.43 32.62 23.92
22 Samford 8 4 41.85 34.98 28.00 22.25
23 San Diego 10 3 41.50 20.97 36.38 17.46
24 Villanova 5 6 41.18 37.13 21.00 15.27
25 Wofford 10 3 39.41 32.93 24.38 21.85
26 Southern Illinois 4 7 39.36 38.68 27.36 27.45
27 North Carolina A&T 12 0 39.12 16.89 35.08 12.42
28 Pennsylvania 6 4 39.02 32.83 29.50 25.10
29 New Hampshire 9 5 38.41 36.79 22.07 21.50
30 Montana 7 4 37.97 32.04 35.00 29.00
31 Northern Arizona 7 5 37.90 36.09 30.25 29.67
32 Dartmouth 8 2 37.40 30.37 26.70 19.40
33 McNeese State 9 2 37.11 22.28 29.82 17.09
34 Colgate 7 4 37.02 28.01 27.73 17.45
35 Maine 4 6 36.65 38.26 24.60 23.30
36 Montana State 5 6 36.06 37.72 25.27 25.00
37 Columbia 8 2 35.71 29.51 23.30 17.20
38 Mercer 5 6 35.65 36.39 24.27 23.09
39 SUNY-Albany 4 7 35.15 34.58 16.55 17.09
40 Duquesne 7 4 34.88 24.53 32.18 23.82
41 Grambling State 11 2 34.37 18.92 31.23 20.46
42 Elon 8 4 34.07 40.28 20.83 24.58
43 California-Davis 5 6 33.86 34.64 33.64 32.18
44 Harvard 5 5 33.66 30.95 22.00 20.90
45 Southeastern Louisiana 6 5 33.17 25.89 34.82 25.64
46 Monmouth (NJ) 9 3 33.00 28.26 32.25 27.58
47 Western Carolina 7 5 32.90 27.78 32.42 26.50
48 Nicholls State 8 4 32.59 27.89 28.25 25.17
49 Sacramento State 7 4 32.51 30.70 37.64 29.73
50 Citadel 5 6 31.12 31.51 21.55 26.36
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby Gil Dobie » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:31 am

I would switch South Dakota and Illinois State, from the games I watched this year.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:02 am

JohnStOnge wrote:I cringe very time I tune into the Heritage Bowl and hear them calling it the HBCU National Championship. It's not. There are 36 HBCU football programs and the Heritage Bowl is a game between the champions of two conferences with a combined 21 teams.

Probably the most obvious problem with calling it the HBCU national championship is Tennessee State. I realize it's unlikely in the near future but let's say Tennessee State playing out of the OVC wins the FCS national championship. How could one possibly then call the winner of the Heritage Bowl the HBCU national champion? Or what if Tennessee State doesn't win the FCS title but does well enough to finish ahead of anybody in the SWAC or MEAC in all the polls?

There's also the possibility that a D2 HBCU could be better than anybody in the SWAC or MEAC. Like what happens if a D2 HBCU wins the D2 national title? This year 5 D2s finished rated higher than North Carolina A&T did in the Massey Ratings.

It's just ridiculous to call that game a "National Championship" game.

Point taken again I wanted the MEAC&SWAC to retain their AQ status I realize money is the problem that keeps these leagues from competing fairly against other FCS based leagues inspite of them having some success against other non-HBCU based schools&leagues.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby Gil Dobie » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:04 am

dal4018 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I cringe very time I tune into the Heritage Bowl and hear them calling it the HBCU National Championship. It's not. There are 36 HBCU football programs and the Heritage Bowl is a game between the champions of two conferences with a combined 21 teams.

Probably the most obvious problem with calling it the HBCU national championship is Tennessee State. I realize it's unlikely in the near future but let's say Tennessee State playing out of the OVC wins the FCS national championship. How could one possibly then call the winner of the Heritage Bowl the HBCU national champion? Or what if Tennessee State doesn't win the FCS title but does well enough to finish ahead of anybody in the SWAC or MEAC in all the polls?

There's also the possibility that a D2 HBCU could be better than anybody in the SWAC or MEAC. Like what happens if a D2 HBCU wins the D2 national title? This year 5 D2s finished rated higher than North Carolina A&T did in the Massey Ratings.

It's just ridiculous to call that game a "National Championship" game.

Point taken again I wanted the MEAC&SWAC to retain their AQ status I realize money is the problem that keeps these leagues from competing fairly against other FCS based leagues inspite of them having some success against other non-HBCU based schools&leagues.


I would think Alabama St could compete, if it's about money. They have the average FCS spending with their athletics.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:48 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
dal4018 wrote:Point taken again I wanted the MEAC&SWAC to retain their AQ status I realize money is the problem that keeps these leagues from competing fairly against other FCS based leagues inspite of them having some success against other non-HBCU based schools&leagues.


I would think Alabama St could compete, if it's about money. They have the average FCS spending with their athletics.

They have a upheaval themselves with signing of a new coach Richard Hill-Eley he has a mentality of a coach that enjoys a strong passing attack.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby BDKJMU » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:06 pm

89Hen wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Massey Ratings

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And you can say the same about the human polls (STATS, Coaches').
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 89Hen » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:14 pm

BDKJMU wrote:And you can say the same about the human polls (STATS, Coaches').

Not NEARLY to the same extent. Let's look at some other crap the Massey uses..

Bassett/Stephenson
4 Yale
10 Dartmouth
15 Columbia

Wilson (this is ALL D-I schools)
28 James Madison 12-0 76.13 29
29 Stanford 9-4 75.76 22
30 Michigan 8-4 74.64 31
31 Mississippi St 8-4 73.84 33
32 Army 8-3 73.64 34
33 NC A&T 11-0 73.64 35
34 Fresno St 9-4 73.17 30
35 NC State 8-4 72.97 37
36 Louisville 8-4 72.48 38
37 N Illinois 8-4 72.13 39
38 Ohio 8-4 72.01 40
39 North Texas 9-4 71.58 32
40 Iowa 7-5 71.53 41
41 N Dakota St 11-1 71.29 44
42 South Carolina 8-4 71.27 42
43 Appalachian St 8-4 71.14 55
44 Arkansas St 7-4 70.79 36
45 Sam Houston St 11-1 70.75 43
46 Houston 7-4 70.66 44
47 Yale 9-1 70.42 47
48 Boston College 7-5 70.19 49
49 Florida Intl 8-4 70.14 62
50 Southern Miss 8-4 70.00 50
51 Kennesaw 12-1 69.89 54
52 Grambling 11-1 69.52 53
53 Iowa St 7-5 69.40 51
53 Marshall 7-5 69.40 52
55 Arizona St 7-5 69.10 56
56 UAB 8-4 69.09 57
57 C Michigan 8-4 68.84 59
58 SMU 7-5 68.56 58
59 Wake Forest 7-5 68.31 63
60 Oregon 7-5 68.27 60
61 Navy 6-5 68.21 61
62 Arizona 7-5 68.05 64
63 Kansas St 7-5 67.57 65
64 Missouri 7-5 67.47 66
65 Purdue 6-6 67.33 67
66 Weber St 11-2 67.27 73
67 Cent Arkansas 10-2 67.24 48
68 Kentucky 7-5 66.97 68
69 Jacksonville St 10-2 66.96 46
70 Wyoming 7-5 66.67 69
71 West Virginia 7-5 66.61 70
72 Texas A&M 7-5 66.49 71
73 Texas 6-6 66.32 75
74 Colorado St 7-5 66.25 76
75 S Dakota St 10-2 65.83 81
76 Wofford 10-2 65.77 82
77 Duke 6-6 65.70 77
78 UT San Antonio 6-5 64.78 83
79 Louisiana Tech 6-6 64.60 85
80 UCLA 6-6 64.56 84
81 Akron 7-6 64.48 74
82 Mississippi 6-6 64.29 86
83 Buffalo 6-6 64.26 88
84 Utah 6-6 64.19 89
85 Florida St 6-6 64.13 98
86 McNeese St 9-2 64.09 87
87 Dartmouth 8-2 64.05 90
88 Stony Brook 10-3 63.71 72
89 Texas Tech 6-6 63.62 91
90 Utah St 6-6 63.53 92
91 Columbia 8-2 63.50 93
92 Temple 6-6 63.44 94
93 W Michigan 6-6 63.21 95
94 MTSU 6-6 63.01 97
95 Georgia Tech 5-6 62.95 96
96 New Mexico St 6-6 62.62 104
97 Georgia St 6-5 62.34 79
98 Southern Utah 9-3 62.13 78
99 San Diego 10-3 62.09 80
100 W Illinois 8-4 61.80 99
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby JohnStOnge » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:19 pm

I'll argue about the validity of power ratings in another thread. The reason I used Massey ratings is that it has a table of ratings of all teams regardless of division or subdivision. So you can look at how D2 teams are rated vs. D1 teams.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if a D2 HBCU wins the D2 national title there's a pretty good chance that it's going to be a better team than any team from the SWAC or MEAC.

The Celebration Bowl is not a HBCU national championship. It's a game between the champions of two conferences that contain a little over half of the HBCU teams.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:06 am

JohnStOnge wrote:I'll argue about the validity of power ratings in another thread. The reason I used Massey ratings is that it has a table of ratings of all teams regardless of division or subdivision. So you can look at how D2 teams are rated vs. D1 teams.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if a D2 HBCU wins the D2 national title there's a pretty good chance that it's going to be a better team than any team from the SWAC or MEAC.

The Celebration Bowl is not a HBCU national championship. It's a game between the champions of two conferences that contain a little over half of the HBCU teams.

Thanks.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby kalm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 am

89Hen wrote:
BDKJMU wrote:And you can say the same about the human polls (STATS, Coaches').

Not NEARLY to the same extent. Let's look at some other crap the Massey uses..

Bassett/Stephenson
4 Yale
10 Dartmouth
15 Columbia

Wilson (this is ALL D-I schools)
28 James Madison 12-0 76.13 29
29 Stanford 9-4 75.76 22
30 Michigan 8-4 74.64 31
31 Mississippi St 8-4 73.84 33
32 Army 8-3 73.64 34
33 NC A&T 11-0 73.64 35
34 Fresno St 9-4 73.17 30
35 NC State 8-4 72.97 37
36 Louisville 8-4 72.48 38
37 N Illinois 8-4 72.13 39
38 Ohio 8-4 72.01 40
39 North Texas 9-4 71.58 32
40 Iowa 7-5 71.53 41
41 N Dakota St 11-1 71.29 44
42 South Carolina 8-4 71.27 42
43 Appalachian St 8-4 71.14 55
44 Arkansas St 7-4 70.79 36
45 Sam Houston St 11-1 70.75 43
46 Houston 7-4 70.66 44
47 Yale 9-1 70.42 47
48 Boston College 7-5 70.19 49
49 Florida Intl 8-4 70.14 62
50 Southern Miss 8-4 70.00 50
51 Kennesaw 12-1 69.89 54
52 Grambling 11-1 69.52 53
53 Iowa St 7-5 69.40 51
53 Marshall 7-5 69.40 52
55 Arizona St 7-5 69.10 56
56 UAB 8-4 69.09 57
57 C Michigan 8-4 68.84 59
58 SMU 7-5 68.56 58
59 Wake Forest 7-5 68.31 63
60 Oregon 7-5 68.27 60
61 Navy 6-5 68.21 61
62 Arizona 7-5 68.05 64
63 Kansas St 7-5 67.57 65
64 Missouri 7-5 67.47 66
65 Purdue 6-6 67.33 67
66 Weber St 11-2 67.27 73
67 Cent Arkansas 10-2 67.24 48
68 Kentucky 7-5 66.97 68
69 Jacksonville St 10-2 66.96 46
70 Wyoming 7-5 66.67 69
71 West Virginia 7-5 66.61 70
72 Texas A&M 7-5 66.49 71
73 Texas 6-6 66.32 75
74 Colorado St 7-5 66.25 76
75 S Dakota St 10-2 65.83 81
76 Wofford 10-2 65.77 82
77 Duke 6-6 65.70 77
78 UT San Antonio 6-5 64.78 83
79 Louisiana Tech 6-6 64.60 85
80 UCLA 6-6 64.56 84
81 Akron 7-6 64.48 74
82 Mississippi 6-6 64.29 86
83 Buffalo 6-6 64.26 88
84 Utah 6-6 64.19 89
85 Florida St 6-6 64.13 98
86 McNeese St 9-2 64.09 87
87 Dartmouth 8-2 64.05 90
88 Stony Brook 10-3 63.71 72
89 Texas Tech 6-6 63.62 91
90 Utah St 6-6 63.53 92
91 Columbia 8-2 63.50 93
92 Temple 6-6 63.44 94
93 W Michigan 6-6 63.21 95
94 MTSU 6-6 63.01 97
95 Georgia Tech 5-6 62.95 96
96 New Mexico St 6-6 62.62 104
97 Georgia St 6-5 62.34 79
98 Southern Utah 9-3 62.13 78
99 San Diego 10-3 62.09 80
100 W Illinois 8-4 61.80 99


BDK is right. In general I've mostly agreed with you regarding computers but I've followed Massey (not the composite) quite a bit more this season and it was better than the human polls at least in accounting for schedule strength. It's certainly not the end all be all but it is another useful data point in comparisons.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 89Hen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:43 am

kalm wrote:BDK is right. In general I've mostly agreed with you regarding computers but I've followed Massey (not the composite) quite a bit more this season and it was better than the human polls at least in accounting for schedule strength. It's certainly not the end all be all but it is another useful data point in comparisons.

So you're OK with Youngstown State in the Top 20?
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby kalm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:00 pm

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:BDK is right. In general I've mostly agreed with you regarding computers but I've followed Massey (not the composite) quite a bit more this season and it was better than the human polls at least in accounting for schedule strength. It's certainly not the end all be all but it is another useful data point in comparisons.

So you're OK with Youngstown State in the Top 20?


:?

Like I said...it's another data point, and not the end all be all. I think YSU and EWU are too high, SHSU is too low (among other things) but at least they're above the lines of NCA&T and Monmouth.
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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 89Hen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:26 pm

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote:So you're OK with Youngstown State in the Top 20?


:?

Like I said...it's another data point, and not the end all be all. I think YSU and EWU are too high, SHSU is too low (among other things) but at least they're above the lines of NCA&T and Monmouth.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 93henfan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:32 pm

Btw, JSO is absolutely correct on the ridiculous "national championship" terminology. I just happened to be channel surfing last weekend and watched about 15 seconds of the Celebration Bowl. It was late in the game, NCA&T had a 4th and 1 at about the Grambling 40, and the announcer said, "this is a call that could decide if you get your second national championship".

Whowhat? Lol.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 93henfan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:35 pm

Speaking of Celebration Bowl, here are the attendance numbers:

2015: 35,528
2016: 31,096
2017: 16,701

Wtf happened this year? Serious question. Did they over-report attendance in 2015-16 or did people get tired of going in 2017? The airport blackout (no pun intended) was the day after, so that wasn't it.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:30 pm

93henfan wrote:Speaking of Celebration Bowl, here are the attendance numbers:

2015: 35,528
2016: 31,096
2017: 16,701

Wtf happened this year? Serious question. Did they over-report attendance in 2015-16 or did people get tired of going in 2017? The airport blackout (no pun intended) was the day after, so that wasn't it.

Well there is always next yr!!!!

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 93henfan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:24 pm

dal4018 wrote:
93henfan wrote:Speaking of Celebration Bowl, here are the attendance numbers:

2015: 35,528
2016: 31,096
2017: 16,701

Wtf happened this year? Serious question. Did they over-report attendance in 2015-16 or did people get tired of going in 2017? The airport blackout (no pun intended) was the day after, so that wasn't it.

Well there is always next yr!!!!


I wasn't trying to be an asshole like I normally am. I was just wandering why the sharp attendance drop. Did they change a tailgating policy, raise ticket prices, count attendance differently (paid, versus distributed), etc?

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:29 am

93henfan wrote:
dal4018 wrote:Well there is always next yr!!!!


I wasn't trying to be an asshole like I normally am. I was just wandering why the sharp attendance drop. Did they change a tailgating policy, raise ticket prices, count attendance differently (paid, versus distributed), etc?

Never said you were just stating the obvious I get your point longevity is the secret to this game's success.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby GAD_SU » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:19 am

93henfan wrote:
dal4018 wrote:Well there is always next yr!!!!


I wasn't trying to be an asshole like I normally am. I was just wandering why the sharp attendance drop. Did they change a tailgating policy, raise ticket prices, count attendance differently (paid, versus distributed), etc?

Ticket prices were much higher than in the past, the lease expensive ticket was $60.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby 93henfan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:46 am

GAD_SU wrote:
93henfan wrote:
I wasn't trying to be an asshole like I normally am. I was just wandering why the sharp attendance drop. Did they change a tailgating policy, raise ticket prices, count attendance differently (paid, versus distributed), etc?

Ticket prices were much higher than in the past, the lease expensive ticket was $60.


Thank you. Hopefully they adjust to the marketplace for next year.

You really need a ~$25 option somewhere in the stadium for families of four to manage costs to watch an FCS game.

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby GAD_SU » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:08 am

93henfan wrote:
GAD_SU wrote:Ticket prices were much higher than in the past, the lease expensive ticket was $60.


Thank you. Hopefully they adjust to the marketplace for next year.

You really need a ~$25 option somewhere in the stadium for families of four to manage costs to watch an FCS game.

When you normally pay between $10-20 for a general admission $60 is a pretty big jump

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby dal4018 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:19 pm

GAD_SU wrote:
93henfan wrote:
Thank you. Hopefully they adjust to the marketplace for next year.

You really need a ~$25 option somewhere in the stadium for families of four to manage costs to watch an FCS game.

When you normally pay between $10-20 for a general admission $60 is a pretty big jump

Inflation!!!!

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Re: It's not the HBCU "National Championship"

Postby GAD_SU » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:46 pm

dal4018 wrote:
GAD_SU wrote:When you normally pay between $10-20 for a general admission $60 is a pretty big jump

Inflation!!!!

Brand new NFL stadium


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