Does a FBS playoff system make FCS FB irrelevant?

[Skjellyfetti]

There are maybe one or two teams in the history of the playoffs that really got screwed by the selection committee. I assume the "12-0 Cal Poly" you remember so well was the 1997 10-1 team? You know, the one that had wins over Simon Frasier, Montana-Western, Western New Mexico, St Mary's... yeah, screwed.

I didn't bring up the 12-0 Cal Poly team. That was SuperHornet.

And, likewise, there have only been a handful of non-BCS teams that were legitimately snubbed.

But, the weak schedule you point out with that Cal Poly team is the same problem the "have-nots" have in FBS. They don't play a schedule worthy of inclusion. There are have-nots in both.

Thanks for helping to illustrate.

[89Hen]

There are maybe one or two teams in the history of the playoffs that really got screwed by the selection committee. I assume the "12-0 Cal Poly" you remember so well was the 1997 10-1 team? You know, the one that had wins over Simon Frasier, Montana-Western, Western New Mexico, St Mary's... yeah, screwed.

I didn't bring up the 12-0 Cal Poly team. That was SuperHornet.

And, likewise, there have only been a handful of non-BCS teams that were legitimately snubbed.

But, the weak schedule you point out with that Cal Poly team is the same problem the "have-nots" have in FBS. They don't play a schedule worthy of inclusion. There are have-nots in both.

Thanks for helping to illustrate.

I forgot you are a liberal and blame the have-not status on the haves. There were plenty of "have nots" that managed to play schedules that allowed them inclusion in the playoffs with good records. See Georgia Southern, Hofstra, Youngstown State... all made the playoffs when they were new, independents.

[kalm]

I didn't bring up the 12-0 Cal Poly team. That was SuperHornet.

And, likewise, there have only been a handful of non-BCS teams that were legitimately snubbed.

But, the weak schedule you point out with that Cal Poly team is the same problem the "have-nots" have in FBS. They don't play a schedule worthy of inclusion. There are have-nots in both.

Thanks for helping to illustrate.

I forgot you are a liberal and blame the have-not status on the haves. There were plenty of "have nots" that managed to play schedules that allowed them inclusion in the playoffs with good records. See Georgia Southern, Hofstra, Youngstown State... all made the playoffs when they were new, independents.

This has all the makings of an AGS Lehigh thread.

[89Hen]

I forgot you are a liberal and blame the have-not status on the haves. There were plenty of "have nots" that managed to play schedules that allowed them inclusion in the playoffs with good records. See Georgia Southern, Hofstra, Youngstown State... all made the playoffs when they were new, independents.

This has all the makings of an AGS Lehigh thread.

I'm surprised Jelly or Horney didn't bring up the San Diego team that was robbed from the playoffs. Those were some fun times on AGS.

[Skjellyfetti]

I don't think you understand that I'm not arguing that these FCS teams should have been included.

I'm saying that FCS teams are left out in their playoffs as well. This isn't something that is exclusive to FBS.

Do they deserve inclusion? No. Not in mine (and not in your) opinion.

Did Boise State, Utah, or TCU play schedules worthy of inclusion? No. Not in my opinion.

Non-power conference teams will HAVE to schedule tough out of conference to be considered.

[dbackjon]

I don't think you understand that I'm not arguing that these FCS teams should have been included.

I'm saying that FCS teams are left out in their playoffs as well. This isn't something that is exclusive to FBS.

Do they deserve inclusion? No. Not in mine (and not in your) opinion.

Did Boise State, Utah, or TCU play schedules worthy of inclusion? No. Not in my opinion.

Non-power conference teams will HAVE to schedule tough out of conference to be considered.

But in the FCS, as long as you win your conference, you have a shot. No one from the Sun Belt has ever been close to having a shot. (Hard to when no one from the Sun Belt has ever been ranked in the Top 25)

[89Hen]

I don't think you understand that I'm not arguing that these FCS teams should have been included.

I'm saying that FCS teams are left out in their playoffs as well. This isn't something that is exclusive to FBS.

Do they deserve inclusion? No. Not in mine (and not in your) opinion.

Did Boise State, Utah, or TCU play schedules worthy of inclusion? No. Not in my opinion.

Non-power conference teams will HAVE to schedule tough out of conference to be considered.

I guess I don't understand what you are arguing then. It sounded to me like you thought it wasn't fair that the "have nots" did not all get a playoff spot, or at the very least meant that our tournament wasn't completely legit because some teams with weakly inflated records were left out. 16 teams was more than enough to ensure that you had the best teams in I-AA playing in a tournament for the national championship. 20-24 is overkill IMO.

[Skjellyfetti]

I guess I don't understand what you are arguing then. It sounded to me like you thought it wasn't fair that the "have nots" did not all get a playoff spot, or at the very least meant that our tournament wasn't completely legit because some teams with weakly inflated records were left out. 16 teams was more than enough to ensure that you had the best teams in I-AA playing in a tournament for the national championship. 20-24 is overkill IMO.

No. Wasn't arguing that at all.

Simply pointing out that the FCS playoffs leave people out as well. There are Boises and TCUs in FCS. Not saying Boise or TCU should have gone to the BCS championship. Not saying the FCS teams left out should have been included. Just saying it happens in FCS as well.

[89Hen]

I guess I don't understand what you are arguing then. It sounded to me like you thought it wasn't fair that the "have nots" did not all get a playoff spot, or at the very least meant that our tournament wasn't completely legit because some teams with weakly inflated records were left out. 16 teams was more than enough to ensure that you had the best teams in I-AA playing in a tournament for the national championship. 20-24 is overkill IMO.

No. Wasn't arguing that at all.

Simply pointing out that the FCS playoffs leave people out as well. There are Boises and TCUs in FCS. Not saying Boise or TCU should have gone to the BCS championship. Not saying the FCS teams left out should have been included. Just saying it happens in FCS as well.

Unless you include every team, somebody is going to be left out. Now I'm really not sure of your point.

[BlackFalkin]

I don't think you understand that I'm not arguing that these FCS teams should have been included.

I'm saying that FCS teams are left out in their playoffs as well. This isn't something that is exclusive to FBS.

Do they deserve inclusion? No. Not in mine (and not in your) opinion.

Did Boise State, Utah, or TCU play schedules worthy of inclusion? No. Not in my opinion.

Non-power conference teams will HAVE to schedule tough out of conference to be considered.

But in the FCS, as long as you win your conference, you have a shot. No one from the Sun Belt has ever been close to having a shot. (Hard to when no one from the Sun Belt has ever been ranked in the Top 25)

Truth be told, if you don't win your conference you shouldn't be in the playoffs. It should be one rep from each conf with 3-5 at large bids. FBS should be the same way. Problem is and has always been there are too many schools in Div 1.

[JayJ79]

Truth be told, if you don't win your conference you shouldn't be in the playoffs. It should be one rep from each conf with 3-5 at large bids. FBS should be the same way. Problem is and has always been there are too many schools in Div 1.

you're contradicting yourself. if you shouldn't be in the playoffs unless you win your conference, then there wouldn't be any need for any at-large bids.

[SuperHornet]

Did Boise State, Utah, or TCU play schedules worthy of inclusion? No. Not in my opinion.

Non-power conference teams will HAVE to schedule tough out of conference to be considered.

That's what's unfair about the situation. Unless someone takes matters out of the ADs' hands, THAT is where the discrepancy will always be. Until THAT happens, scheduling is a two-way street; BOTH schools have to agree to the game. The "power schools" get to weasel out by ducking the games, and THEN claim that the Boises and TCU's of the world somehow "failed" to schedule a "tough enough" schedule. They'll take the lower-tier FCS auto-win rather than face a mid-major they know will have a shot at taking them out.

It's that two-faced-ness that turns my stomach about the whole FBS situation....

[SuperHornet]

No one from the Sun Belt has ever been close to having a shot. (Hard to when no one from the Sun Belt has ever been ranked in the Top 25)

While I don't really believe this, I've gone back through ESPN's grouping of the various polls back to the last few weeks of 2012, and it seems that you are correct. However, SW LA was getting votes in the USA Today poll for nearly the last half of 2013, and Arkansas State was in 2012 (more so than SW LA in 2013, though, plus AR St was getting AP Poll votes, too)....

[89Hen]

Truth be told, if you don't win your conference you shouldn't be in the playoffs. It should be one rep from each conf with 3-5 at large bids. FBS should be the same way. Problem is and has always been there are too many schools in Div 1.

What's the logic behind that? There are conferences where all the teams don't even play each other.

[Aho Old Guy]

So won't FBS have to be FB/CS? Since a proper champion will be determined. It's a shame D1 fcs teams are treated like D2 but fcs conference basketball teams are thought of as D1. (Via the march madness tourney.) I think this is the only reason the term "FCS" and "1-AA" exist. And if that's true what's the future of Division 1 athletics and conferences?

NCAA board endorses more power for big schools

[dbackjon]

No one from the Sun Belt has ever been close to having a shot. (Hard to when no one from the Sun Belt has ever been ranked in the Top 25)

While I don't really believe this, I've gone back through ESPN's grouping of the various polls back to the last few weeks of 2012, and it seems that you are correct. However, SW LA was getting votes in the USA Today poll for nearly the last half of 2013, and Arkansas State was in 2012 (more so than SW LA in 2013, though, plus AR St was getting AP Poll votes, too)....

It is true.

Sun Belt fans acknowledge this as one of the league's perception issues.

[89Hen]

Sun Belt fans acknowledge this as one of the league's perception issues.

The league's issue is reality, not perception. Honest question, what is the biggest win the Sun Belt ever had? Last year the SB went 2-15 vs BCS AQ teams. Two wins were Kentucky and Wake.

AppSt will actually help the SunBelt average attendance. Last year only ArkSt and LA-L averaged over 20k.

[CatMom]

Sun Belt fans acknowledge this as one of the league's perception issues.

The league's issue is reality, not perception. Honest question, what is the biggest win the Sun Belt ever had? Last year the SB went 2-15 vs BCS AQ teams. Two wins were Kentucky and Wake.

AppSt will actually help the SunBelt average attendance. Last year only ArkSt and LA-L averaged over 20k.

While in reality, at the end of the day, the Sun Belt was the highest ranked G5 conference having gone 19-21 OOC and had 7 of their 8 teams being Bowl eligible; even if only 2 went to Bowls due to tie-in issues.



FWIW - Hey all LTNS

[89Hen]

The league's issue is reality, not perception. Honest question, what is the biggest win the Sun Belt ever had? Last year the SB went 2-15 vs BCS AQ teams. Two wins were Kentucky and Wake.

AppSt will actually help the SunBelt average attendance. Last year only ArkSt and LA-L averaged over 20k.

While in reality, at the end of the day, the Sun Belt was the highest ranked G5 conference having gone 19-21 OOC and had 7 of their 8 teams being Bowl eligible; even if only 2 went to Bowls due to tie-in issues.

Talk about lipstick on a pig. Four of the seven were:

LA-M = 6-6 with win over Grambling
USA = 6-6 with a win over SUU
Troy = 6-6 with a win over Savannah St
TxSt = 6-6 with a win over Prairie View

[clenz]

While in reality, at the end of the day, the Sun Belt was the highest ranked G5 conference having gone 19-21 OOC and had 7 of their 8 teams being Bowl eligible; even if only 2 went to Bowls due to tie-in issues.

Talk about lipstick on a pig. Four of the seven were:

LA-M = 6-6 with win over Grambling
USA = 6-6 with a win over SUU
Troy = 6-6 with a win over Savannah St
TxSt = 6-6 with a win over Prairie View

I was about to do a similar break down.


I'll do it later and post the full list of OOC wins that the SBC had, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[CatMom]

While in reality, at the end of the day, the Sun Belt was the highest ranked G5 conference having gone 19-21 OOC and had 7 of their 8 teams being Bowl eligible; even if only 2 went to Bowls due to tie-in issues.

Talk about lipstick on a pig. Four of the seven were:

LA-M = 6-6 with win over Grambling
USA = 6-6 with a win over SUU
Troy = 6-6 with a win over Savannah St
TxSt = 6-6 with a win over Prairie View

And, as we did when in FCS, D2 teams are on FCs schedules. FBS teams get who they can from the FCS. I was never a fan of Bowls but it's all we have now, being in FBS. As was stated, G5 teams are not going to see that playoff in my lifetime (cause I'm already close to old as dirt)
So, in that context, they were still eligible and I'm not upset with 6-6 in our 2nd FBS (1st full) year.
TXST 2nd year FBS 6-6
USA 2nd year FBS 6-6
What you guys can and will disparage as crap records I see as a competitive conference in spite of 3 "new" teams; and adding 2 more this year. To each his/her own.
Our FBS OOC wins (not impressive really) Southern Miss, Wyoming (who wiped us up and down the field in 2011)

I still miss (and follow) the FCS playoffs.

Not really trying to defend 6-6 records or Bowl games; just thought I'd add to the conversation.

[Mvemjsunpx]

While in reality, at the end of the day, the Sun Belt was the highest ranked G5 conference having gone 19-21 OOC and had 7 of their 8 teams being Bowl eligible; even if only 2 went to Bowls due to tie-in issues.

Talk about lipstick on a pig. Four of the seven were:

LA-M = 6-6 with win over Grambling
USA = 6-6 with a win over SUU
Troy = 6-6 with a win over Savannah St
TxSt = 6-6 with a win over Prairie View

South Alabama lost to SUU.

[clenz]

Every OOC win for the SBC last season by team and head scratching/notable losses

Ark State
Wins
Arkansas Pine Bluff – 2-9 FCS
Idaho – 1-11

Losses
Memphis - 3-9

Georgia State
Wins:
NONE

Losses:
Samford – 8-5 FCS
Chattanoga – 8-4 FCS
West Virginia – 4-8
Jacksonville St – 11-4 FCS

UL-L
Wins:
Nicholls St – 4-8FCS
Akron - 4-8
New Mexico St – 2-10

Losses
Arkansas – 3-8

UL-M
Grambling St –0-11 FCS
Wake Forest – 4-8

Losses:
None I would call "bad"

South Alabama
Wins:
Tulane 7-6
Kent State – 4-8

Losses:
Southern Utah – 8-5 FCS
Tennessee 5-7

Texas St
Wins:
Southern Mississippi - 1-11
Prairie View A&M – 6-6 FCS
Wyoming 5-7
Idaho – 1-11

Troy
Wins:
Alabama Birmingham - 2-10
Savannah St – 1-11 FCS

Western Kentucky
Kentucky - 2-10
Morgan State – 5-7 FCS
Navy 9-4
Army - 3-9

Losses:
Tennessee 5-7


That means the OOC wins had a combined record of 77-165, or a win % of 31%. Beating a bunch of shit teams doesn't mean you don't have a shit team/conference. Take the FCS wins out and you have 71 wins...then again the conference had 4 FCS losses. So against FBS teams the conference was 71-161 for a win % of 30%.

[89Hen]

Not really trying to defend 6-6 records or Bowl games; just thought I'd add to the conversation.

Well, at least now you're not.

[clenz]

Then again...Texas State getting Bowl eligible in their second season does show how easy it is to get bowl eligble.

They were FCS from 1984-2011. In those 28 seasons they
Were 141-173-1 (44.9%)
Had 7 seasons over .500 (25% of the time)
Had 2 seasons with more than 7 wins
1 outright conference title
1 shared conference title
Made 2 playoff appearances
Finished just 4 seasons in the final top 25 (25, 25, 22, and 4)
Based on wins, poll finishes, and confernce finishes their best 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 year stretches don't involve anything after 1990 until you get over halfway down the list of seasons combinations



So....take from that what you will.