G5 Playoff

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G5 Playoff

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Group of 5 officials considering playoff for non-Power 5 teams

Northern Illinois athletic director Sean Frazier is among a growing number of Group of 5 officials that favor adding a playoff specifically for the Group of 5 schools.

"It's time to have a realistic conversation about creating a playoff for the Group of 5," Frazier told ESPN. "Why not?"

It's been 32 years since a non-Power 5 team won a national championship (BYU in 1984) and it likely will never happen again in the current format. In the first three years of the College Football Playoff, a Group of 5 team has never ranked higher than No. 13 (Memphis in the 2015 initial rankings) by the CFB Playoff selection committee.

"There is absolutely no ability for us (teams in the Group of 5) to be in that national title conversation," Frazier said. "That's just reality. Anyone that says we can: That's a flat-out lie."

The Group of 5 consists of schools from the American, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West and Sun Belt conferences along with independents BYU, Army and UMass.

Frazier said he believes a Group of 5 playoff could be financially rewarding to those schools. NBC, CBS and ESPN have interest in televising a Group of 5 playoff, an industry source said.

"As long as the financial agreement that currently exists with the CFB Playoff remains and we had the opportunity to package a Group of 5 championship, why wouldn't we want to do it?" a Group of 5 official said. "It would spread the exposure to all five conferences, rather than just the one conference champion that plays in a New Year's 6 bowl."

Currently, the highest-ranked Group of 5 champ is under contract to play in a New Year's 6 bowl -- the Cotton, Fiesta or Peach -- for the next nine years, through the 2025 regular season. Frazier envisions an eight-team playoff made up of the five Group of 5 conference champions and three at-large teams or independents.

"Every division of college football has a national championship -- Power 5, FCS, Division II, Division III and NAIA -- every division, that is, except the Group of 5," Frazier said.

While Frazier and several other Group of 5 officials, who wished not be identified, support adding a Group of 5 playoff, plenty of Group of 5 officials oppose a separate playoff.

"Absolutely would not want a separate playoff," said a Group of 5 AD, "and I can't put enough exclamation points behind that."

American Conference commissioner Mike Aresco has no interest in it either.

"The answer is an emphatic no," Aresco said. "We compete for national championships like anyone else in FBS, including the Power 5, and have no interest in any kind of separate championship."

The Group of 5 officials that favor a Group of 5 championship acknowledge several factors would have to be resolved: how much the playoff would be worth, how would it impact the Group of 5's automatic bid to a New Year's 6 bowl, what bowls and how many teams would be involved.

Some officials are concerned a separate national title would perpetuate the perception of the haves and have-nots between the Power 5 and Group of 5.

"You mean compete for a junior varsity championship?" one Group of 5 AD said. "No thanks."

Even though the Group of 5 representatives have upset the Power 5 in the past two New Year's 6 bowls -- Houston over Florida State in 2015 and Boise State over Arizona in 2014 -- the committee has penalized the Group of 5 teams for playing weaker conference schedules. The Power 5 teams are from the ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, SEC and Pac-12 conferences and Notre Dame.

"The College Football Playoff is great and I love the committee, but their focus is on the national championship for the Power 5 teams and not focused on getting Group of 5 (teams) in the national conversation," Frazier said.

This season, Western Michigan was only one of two undefeated teams along with No. 1 Alabama. The Broncos had non-league wins at Power 5 opponents Northwestern and Illinois, yet 13-0 WMU was ranked No. 15 -- behind six Power 5 teams with three losses and one Power 5 team with four losses.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... er-5-teams
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by SDHornet »

This is the key quote:
"There is absolutely no ability for us (teams in the Group of 5) to be in that national title conversation," Frazier said. "That's just reality. Anyone that says we can: That's a flat-out lie."

The way the P5 created the playoff and blocked, or severely limited (however you want to interpret it is up to you) access by the G5 is why this is being considered and is exactly what the P5 wanted from the jump. In this new and current economics of D1 football, this was bound to happen eventually.

I think this happens once the final P5 conference alignment (B12/Texas/Oklahoma) shakes out in the next decade. Once that happens and the P5 door is officially closed, the G5 can move forward with their new status/identity.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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SDHornet wrote:This is the key quote:
"There is absolutely no ability for us (teams in the Group of 5) to be in that national title conversation," Frazier said. "That's just reality. Anyone that says we can: That's a flat-out lie."
The MAC might be butthurt that WMU wasn't even considered for the CFP. They weren't one of the top 4 teams in the country by any objective measure.

All of this is much ado about nothing. I'm 101% sure that the AAC is against this. And if they aren't interested none of the other G5 leagues will be interested for sure.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Pwns wrote:
SDHornet wrote:This is the key quote:
"There is absolutely no ability for us (teams in the Group of 5) to be in that national title conversation," Frazier said. "That's just reality. Anyone that says we can: That's a flat-out lie."
The MAC might be butthurt that WMU wasn't even considered for the CFP. They weren't one of the top 4 teams in the country by any objective measure.

All of this is much ado about nothing. I'm 101% sure that the AAC is against this. And if they aren't interested none of the other G5 leagues will be interested for sure.
This is more than that. Sure right now, at this point in time it is pure butthurt. But the economics and rules/requirements of the G5 are such that there is no realistic chance that any one of them would ever find their way into the P5 playoff. Over time the economic gap between the P5 and G5 will be unsurmountable and everyone knows it (we’re practically there now).

No doubt the AAC is against it. They had 10 of their 12 FB members lobby the B12 for a spot at the P5 table. They still think they are P5 caliber (aside from Cincy, Houston and maybe UConn none of them have a shot at P5 status) and are holding out hope of a spot in a P5 conference. That all changes once the B12 situation sorts itself out, specifically what Texas and Oklahoma decide to do (they are the only reason the B12 is considered a P5 conference). Once the P5 door is closed forever (TV contracts are up for renegotiation in the early to mid 2020’s) I think the remaining G5 “we are part of the big boy club too” holdouts will change their tune and finally realize they are where they are for the long haul.

This is all about the long game, not the “our G5 guy got snubbed this year” noise. When the time comes, G5 will have to decide if they are content with these 3rd tier bowls (and the minimum exposure and payouts they provide) or starting up their own playoff and tapping into a new revenue source with new TV deals.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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SDHornet wrote: This is more than that. Sure right now, at this point in time it is pure butthurt. But the economics and rules/requirements of the G5 are such that there is no realistic chance that any one of them would ever find their way into the P5 playoff. Over time the economic gap between the P5 and G5 will be unsurmountable and everyone knows it (we’re practically there now).

No doubt the AAC is against it. They had 10 of their 12 FB members lobby the B12 for a spot at the P5 table. They still think they are P5 caliber (aside from Cincy, Houston and maybe UConn none of them have a shot at P5 status) and are holding out hope of a spot in a P5 conference. That all changes once the B12 situation sorts itself out, specifically what Texas and Oklahoma decide to do (they are the only reason the B12 is considered a P5 conference). Once the P5 door is closed forever (TV contracts are up for renegotiation in the early to mid 2020’s) I think the remaining G5 “we are part of the big boy club too” holdouts will change their tune and finally realize they are where they are for the long haul.

This is all about the long game, not the “our G5 guy got snubbed this year” noise. When the time comes, G5 will have to decide if they are content with these 3rd tier bowls (and the minimum exposure and payouts they provide) or starting up their own playoff and tapping into a new revenue source with new TV deals.
Whether or not a G5 could get into the CFP is irrelevant.

Last year (2015), the Sun Belt finished dead last in the CFP conference ratings and ended up netting over a million dollars per school from the CFP payouts. You think media rights for the G5 playoff will generate that much? Hell no.

The G5 teams might moan complain and gripe about certain teams not being considered for the CFP, but we'll STFU and stay where we are because we know it's not going to be lucrative to go it alone.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Pwns wrote: Whether or not a G5 could get into the CFP is irrelevant.

Last year (2015), the Sun Belt finished dead last in the CFP conference ratings and ended up netting over a million dollars per school from the CFP payouts. You think media rights for the G5 playoff will generate that much? Hell no.

The G5 teams might moan complain and gripe about certain teams not being considered for the CFP, but we'll STFU and stay where we are because we know it's not going to be lucrative to go it alone.
If getting into the CFP was irrelevant then there wouldn't be ADs, you know people who supposedly know their place, spouting off about not having a shot at the playoff.

And you think the P5 will gladly keep forking over money to the G5 in perpetuity? :? :lol:
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Penn State was robbed...
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Re: G5 Playoff

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SDHornet wrote: If getting into the CFP was irrelevant then there wouldn't be ADs, you know people who supposedly know their place, spouting off about not having a shot at the playoff.
Not following what you're saying here. Do you really think most G5 ADs think their school has any realistic shot at the CFP? Most won't publicly admit it publicly, but they know it.
SDHornet wrote:And you think the P5 will gladly keep forking over money to the G5 in perpetuity? :? :lol:
Do you think the Power 5 allows one FCS win to be counted towards bowl eligibility out of the goodness of their hearts? Or that they allow the G5 to get more money from the CFP than they ever got from the BCS system just out of generosity?

If separating from the G5 or mandating P5-only schedules was profitable, the P5 would have done it by now.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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I see some more delusional banter from people associated with G5 programs.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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JohnStOnge wrote:I see some more delusional banter from people associated with G5 programs.
:lol:

Says the King of delusional banter. :nod:
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Re: G5 Playoff

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"Absolutely would not want a separate playoff," said a Group of 5 AD, "and I can't put enough exclamation points behind that."

Aka bowl games... :lol:
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Pwns wrote:
SDHornet wrote: If getting into the CFP was irrelevant then there wouldn't be ADs, you know people who supposedly know their place, spouting off about not having a shot at the playoff.
Not following what you're saying here. Do you really think most G5 ADs think their school has any realistic shot at the CFP? Most won't publicly admit it publicly, but they know it.
SDHornet wrote:And you think the P5 will gladly keep forking over money to the G5 in perpetuity? :? :lol:
Do you think the Power 5 allows one FCS win to be counted towards bowl eligibility out of the goodness of their hearts? Or that they allow the G5 to get more money from the CFP than they ever got from the BCS system just out of generosity?

If separating from the G5 or mandating P5-only schedules was profitable, the P5 would have done it by now.
The CFP payouts were a trade for autonomy votes. The G5 stupidly sold their futures for a few crumbs. P5 now has autonomy and can do whatever they want. Once the P5 finishes circling the wagons they can start ratcheting down the payouts as the G5 will have zero leverage to retain those...and then expand the CFP to 8 and suck even more money out of the college fb market for themselves. The P5 holds all the cards now that they have autonomy.

Ironically enough from a business standpoint the P5 would probably rather play an FCS team over a G5 team. With an FCS team you can pay less for a one and done and not even worry about them asking for a home and home deal that G5s want...add to that fact that P5 vs G5 games have been decreasing over the last few years and you can pretty much see where the trend is going.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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The CFP payouts were a trade for autonomy votes. The G5 stupidly sold their futures for a few crumbs. P5 now has autonomy and can do whatever they want. Once the P5 finishes circling the wagons they can start ratcheting down the payouts as the G5 will have zero leverage to retain those...and then expand the CFP to 8 and suck even more money out of the college fb market for themselves. The P5 holds all the cards now that they have autonomy.
Look, the P5 is what big time college football is. This thing with the G5 programs thinking they are big time college football is delusional. The NCAA TRIED to create a rational system with the creation of I-AA in the early 80s. But the delusional nature of programs in FBS but not in what we now call the Big 5 screwed that up.

They tell themselves that being FBS means they're in the top level of college football. But it doesn't. If you're not in the ACC, the Big 10, the Big 12, the Pac 12, or the SEC or you're not Notre Dame you are not in the top level of college football. You don't generate fan interest sufficient to say you're in the top level. You don't have the resources. You don't have the cache to recruit against the programs in the conferences who do generate the fan interest.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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JohnStOnge wrote:
The CFP payouts were a trade for autonomy votes. The G5 stupidly sold their futures for a few crumbs. P5 now has autonomy and can do whatever they want. Once the P5 finishes circling the wagons they can start ratcheting down the payouts as the G5 will have zero leverage to retain those...and then expand the CFP to 8 and suck even more money out of the college fb market for themselves. The P5 holds all the cards now that they have autonomy.
Look, the P5 is what big time college football is. This thing with the G5 programs thinking they are big time college football is delusional. The NCAA TRIED to create a rational system with the creation of I-AA in the early 80s. But the delusional nature of programs in FBS but not in what we now call the Big 5 screwed that up.

They tell themselves that being FBS means they're in the top level of college football. But it doesn't. If you're not in the ACC, the Big 10, the Big 12, the Pac 12, or the SEC or you're not Notre Dame you are not in the top level of college football. You don't generate fan interest sufficient to say you're in the top level. You don't have the resources. You don't have the cache to recruit against the programs in the conferences who do generate the fan interest.
:lol:

You don't know what they tell themselves or what they think. The only thing you're providing is your ignorant uninformed opinion. :dunce:

I can only speak from Georgia Southern's point of view, but I'm sure Appo is no different. We hit our ceiling in FCS. We were only averaging 17K-19K in attendance at our peak. We're already averaging 21K+ in FBS. Compare that to the paltry average of 8,300 in FCS, and there is room for growth, unlimited growth.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Here's the facts:
1. The G5 now has a guaranteed spot in the New Year's Six bowls, as opposed to only getting in a major bowl every few years in the BCS system. A rule was also specifically put in place that if a G5 team gets in the CFP none of the NY6 outside of the playoff have to pick a G5 team.
2. The G5 gets more money from the CFP than it ever got from the BCS.
3. The G5 gained voting power in the autonomy.

When you look at what has actually transpired over the last few years and not take ESPN bloggers and writers as gospel the Power 5 is doing the exact opposite of what you would expect if they wanted their own subdivision. If anyone has any specific actions that have been taken that would indicate the Power 5 getting their own subdivision or own organization I'm all ears, but I won't accept "my opinion is self-evident".
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Pwns wrote:Here's the facts:
1. The G5 now has a guaranteed spot in the New Year's Six bowls, as opposed to only getting in a major bowl every few years in the BCS system. A rule was also specifically put in place that if a G5 team gets in the CFP none of the NY6 outside of the playoff have to pick a G5 team.
2. The G5 gets more money from the CFP than it ever got from the BCS.
3. The G5 gained voting power in the autonomy.

When you look at what has actually transpired over the last few years and not take ESPN bloggers and writers as gospel the Power 5 is doing the exact opposite of what you would expect if they wanted their own subdivision. If anyone has any specific actions that have been taken that would indicate the Power 5 getting their own subdivision or own organization I'm all ears, but I won't accept "my opinion is self-evident".
Huh? G5 has never lost more money on an annual basis than it has now. Universities are bleeding red ink all while revenues are at all time highs. This is because they are trying to spend their way into the P5.

You are falling for the failed mindset that the NYD bowls meaning anything. This is exactly what the P5 wants the G5 to think. Nothing outside of the CFP means a damn thing, but the G5 is grateful to get a few more crumbs.

Now that P5 has autonomy they don't need their own subdivision. They'll continue to gobble up the lions share of the CF market share and continue to squeeze the G5...all while letting them think they have a good deal. If ever there was a great long con (Lost reference) that was pulled off, this one is up there at the top. :nod:
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Re: G5 Playoff

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SDHornet wrote:
Pwns wrote:Here's the facts:
1. The G5 now has a guaranteed spot in the New Year's Six bowls, as opposed to only getting in a major bowl every few years in the BCS system. A rule was also specifically put in place that if a G5 team gets in the CFP none of the NY6 outside of the playoff have to pick a G5 team.
2. The G5 gets more money from the CFP than it ever got from the BCS.
3. The G5 gained voting power in the autonomy.

When you look at what has actually transpired over the last few years and not take ESPN bloggers and writers as gospel the Power 5 is doing the exact opposite of what you would expect if they wanted their own subdivision. If anyone has any specific actions that have been taken that would indicate the Power 5 getting their own subdivision or own organization I'm all ears, but I won't accept "my opinion is self-evident".
Huh? G5 has never lost more money on an annual basis than it has now. Universities are bleeding red ink all while revenues are at all time highs. This is because they are trying to spend their way into the P5.

You are falling for the failed mindset that the NYD bowls meaning anything. This is exactly what the P5 wants the G5 to think. Nothing outside of the CFP means a damn thing, but the G5 is grateful to get a few more crumbs.

Now that P5 has autonomy they don't need their own subdivision. They'll continue to gobble up the lions share of the CF market share and continue to squeeze the G5...all while letting them think they have a good deal. If ever there was a great long con (Lost reference) that was pulled off, this one is up there at the top. :nod:
A lot of non sequiturs in that response since you didn't refute any of Pwns' points.

The major flaw of your theory is that for every Alabama or Clemson or Ohio State, there are 30 Vanderbilts or Rutgers or Iowa States or Syracuses or Illinois' or Indianas or Kansas' etc. Those teams have to cram their OOC schedules with G5's in order to win games in order to have any chance to become bowl eligible, and those teams have just as much power in the decision making process as the elites. The B1G has already virtually outlawed their teams from playing FCS teams (other conferences will probably follow their lead), so it only makes G5's more valuable. :nod:
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Re: G5 Playoff

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Baldy wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Huh? G5 has never lost more money on an annual basis than it has now. Universities are bleeding red ink all while revenues are at all time highs. This is because they are trying to spend their way into the P5.

You are falling for the failed mindset that the NYD bowls meaning anything. This is exactly what the P5 wants the G5 to think. Nothing outside of the CFP means a damn thing, but the G5 is grateful to get a few more crumbs.

Now that P5 has autonomy they don't need their own subdivision. They'll continue to gobble up the lions share of the CF market share and continue to squeeze the G5...all while letting them think they have a good deal. If ever there was a great long con (Lost reference) that was pulled off, this one is up there at the top. :nod:
A lot of non sequiturs in that response since you didn't refute any of Pwns' points.

The major flaw of your theory is that for every Alabama or Clemson or Ohio State, there are 30 Vanderbilts or Rutgers or Iowa States or Syracuses or Illinois' or Indianas or Kansas' etc. Those teams have to cram their OOC schedules with G5's in order to win games in order to have any chance to become bowl eligible, and those teams have just as much power in the decision making process as the elites. The B1G has already virtually outlawed their teams from playing FCS teams (other conferences will probably follow their lead), so it only makes G5's more valuable. :nod:
P5 vs FCS are also being reduced, but they will never go away completely...just like G5 matchups. They'll be reduced which plays into the reduction of monies trickling down to the have nots. P12 has FCS games scheduled at least 4 years out, as does the SEC.
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Re: G5 Playoff

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SDHornet wrote:
Baldy wrote: A lot of non sequiturs in that response since you didn't refute any of Pwns' points.

The major flaw of your theory is that for every Alabama or Clemson or Ohio State, there are 30 Vanderbilts or Rutgers or Iowa States or Syracuses or Illinois' or Indianas or Kansas' etc. Those teams have to cram their OOC schedules with G5's in order to win games in order to have any chance to become bowl eligible, and those teams have just as much power in the decision making process as the elites. The B1G has already virtually outlawed their teams from playing FCS teams (other conferences will probably follow their lead), so it only makes G5's more valuable. :nod:
P5 vs FCS are also being reduced, but they will never go away completely...just like G5 matchups. They'll be reduced which plays into the reduction of monies trickling down to the have nots. P12 has FCS games scheduled at least 4 years out, as does the SEC.
FCS games are being reduced and the payouts are barely keeping up with inflation, but payouts to G5's have almost doubled over the last few years. Ark State is getting $1.8M from UGA in 2019. You will see a G5 get a $2M payout within the next couple of years. :nod:
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by Pwns »

Baldy wrote: FCS games are being reduced and the payouts are barely keeping up with inflation, but payouts to G5's have almost doubled over the last few years. Ark State is getting $1.8M from UGA in 2019. You will see a G5 get a $2M payout within the next couple of years. :nod:
And we're also getting the biggest payday we ever got from Auburn this season if I'm not mistaken.

On another note, it's a big stretch to say that the CFP system is a "racket". The money from the CFP is generated because of butts in seats and eyes on TV. The Power 5 have substantially more in terms of fan bases, so it makes sense they get a larger piece of the pie. It's not complicated

The most significant event over the last 10 years that changed college football wasn't the autonomy, it was arguably Utah's AG threatening to sue the BCS. That changed everything. What the G5 gets from the CFP is pocket change, but it may actually be more than what the fan interest of the G5 warrants and it's a heck of a lot more money than the FCS will ever make from postseason. :nod:

As I said, the Power 5 does not want college football to be governed from a judge's bench if they can help it.
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by SDHornet »

All that coin and the G5 is still deep in the red on an annual basis. Something will have to change, certainly digging a deeper whole all while pretending to be on the same level of the P5 isn't a sustainable business plan.
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by JohnStOnge »

Baldy wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Look, the P5 is what big time college football is. This thing with the G5 programs thinking they are big time college football is delusional. The NCAA TRIED to create a rational system with the creation of I-AA in the early 80s. But the delusional nature of programs in FBS but not in what we now call the Big 5 screwed that up.

They tell themselves that being FBS means they're in the top level of college football. But it doesn't. If you're not in the ACC, the Big 10, the Big 12, the Pac 12, or the SEC or you're not Notre Dame you are not in the top level of college football. You don't generate fan interest sufficient to say you're in the top level. You don't have the resources. You don't have the cache to recruit against the programs in the conferences who do generate the fan interest.
:lol:

You don't know what they tell themselves or what they think. The only thing you're providing is your ignorant uninformed opinion. :dunce:

I can only speak from Georgia Southern's point of view, but I'm sure Appo is no different. We hit our ceiling in FCS. We were only averaging 17K-19K in attendance at our peak. We're already averaging 21K+ in FBS. Compare that to the paltry average of 8,300 in FCS, and there is room for growth, unlimited growth.
You're kidding yourself.
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by SuperHornet »

Any thoughts about force-dropping G5 to FCS?
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by JohnStOnge »

Baldy, to follow up: I just ran the numbers for Georgia Southern's finances for 2016 vs. it's last year in FCS (2013) using the data at http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/.

Note that I am deducting the amount the school has to kick in to support the athletic department from the "revenues" portion because that is a cost to the school.

Having done that, Georgia Southern's athletic programs resulted in a net loss of $7.8 million to the school in 2016. In 2013, the last year that Georgia Southern was in FCS, the net loss was $2.5 million.

Again: If you think going FBS is a financial benefit to your school you are kidding yourself.

In the meantime you've moved from a level of competition in which you had a chance to compete for being among the best to one in which you have no chance of doing that. You do not belong int he same competition level as the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech. You just don't. You're being a poser by attempting to do it.
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Re: G5 Playoff

Post by Baldy »

JohnStOnge wrote:Baldy, to follow up: I just ran the numbers for Georgia Southern's finances for 2016 vs. it's last year in FCS (2013) using the data at http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/.

Note that I am deducting the amount the school has to kick in to support the athletic department from the "revenues" portion because that is a cost to the school.

Having done that, Georgia Southern's athletic programs resulted in a net loss of $7.8 million to the school in 2016. In 2013, the last year that Georgia Southern was in FCS, the net loss was $2.5 million.

Again: If you think going FBS is a financial benefit to your school you are kidding yourself.

In the meantime you've moved from a level of competition in which you had a chance to compete for being among the best to one in which you have no chance of doing that. You do not belong int he same competition level as the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech. You just don't. You're being a poser by attempting to do it.
Yeah, you're an idiot. :dunce:

Numbers aren't your thing. Stick to topics you're more familiar with...like The Hildabeast's nutsack and lusting after prepubescent teens.

Due to recent construction projects to several of our facilities: $1+ million for the baseball stadium, $2 Million for the basketball arena, another $1 Million in infrastructure upgrades to Paulson Stadium (HVAC, IT, etc), recent work to the university golf course, and God only knows what else, the "Facilities" portion of the Expense Sheet (yeah, that was included...do your homework) increased by 6 fold since our last year in FCS. Those were one time expenses, those would have happened regardless of what division of football we play.

Keep trying. :coffee:
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