Libertarianism At Its Finest

[kalm]

Market forces can fix anything. All we need now is more tax cuts

AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY, the pro-corporate pressure group founded and funded by billionaire industrialist Charles Koch, wants employees to return to work despite desperate pleas from public health officials that people should stay home as much as possible to help contain the spread of the coronavirus.

As states began to order nonessential businesses to shut down last week, AFP released a statement calling for all businesses to remain open.

Some of the group’s state chapters have taken a similar tone. AFP Pennsylvania’s state director, as well as a regional director with the group, have taken to Twitter to lambast shelter-in-place policies. The Michigan chapter of AFP on Monday slammed Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order, which closed down fitness centers, nail salons, amusement parks, casinos, and other businesses deemed nonessential, calling it the “wrong approach for our state.”

AFP’s position, which directly contradicts the advice of medical experts who say that social isolation is essential to curbing the spread of the coronavirus, comes after the group lobbied the Trump administration in 2018 to rescind $1 billion from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Much of AFP’s recommended cuts to government programs, which included CDC money for infectious disease control and global health, became part of the official White House budget request, though most were not adopted by Congress

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/26/ame ... ronavirus/

[Ivytalk]

I believe Lee “Cardinal” Fang’s first sentence accurately describes AFP as a “pro-corporate pressure group.” That’s been its traditional approach: to attack particular forms of government spending that it doesn’t like, such as CDC funding and regulatory expenditures. Fang refers once to the AFP as “libertarian,” but only selectively so. I view the AFP as just another business lobbying group. I also note the hypocrisy in having the AFP’s lobbying troops work from home.

There certainly is a libertarian argument that the government’s business shutdown orders have been too broad, and that citizens and businesses should have the right to do as they please — but only AFTER being fully advised of the facts regarding the coronavirus and the health benefits of social distancing. Given such disclosure, people may decide to isolate themselves and take protective measures anyway. Businesses may or may not survive such aggregate decisions. Libertarian principles dictate that individuals should generally be free to act as they wish, provided that those actions harm nobody else. Under those principles, there is room for some government role to preserve public order. It is a philosophical dilemma, to be sure.

[kalm]

I believe Lee “Cardinal” Fang’s first sentence accurately describes AFP as a “pro-corporate pressure group.” That’s been its traditional approach: to attack particular forms of government spending that it doesn’t like, such as CDC funding and regulatory expenditures. Fang refers once to the AFP as “libertarian,” but only selectively so. I view the AFP as just another business lobbying group. I also note the hypocrisy in having the AFP’s lobbying troops work from home.

There certainly is a libertarian argument that the government’s business shutdown orders have been too broad, and that citizens and businesses should have the right to do as they please — but only AFTER being fully advised of the facts regarding the coronavirus and the health benefits of social distancing. Given such disclosure, people may decide to isolate themselves and take protective measures anyway. Businesses may or may not survive such aggregate decisions. Libertarian principles dictate that individuals should generally be free to act as they wish, provided that those actions harm nobody else. Under those principles, there is room for some government role to preserve public order. It is a philosophical dilemma, to be sure.

Good post! Too many selfish and uninformed dumbasses is a reality and bitter pill for freedom.

[Ivytalk]

Interested posters may want to read the Libertarian Party’s Statement of Principles, adopted in 1974 and still the basis for the more detailed party platform today. It’s on the LP website.

[CID1990]

Interested posters may want to read the Libertarian Party’s Statement of Principles, adopted in 1974 and still the basis for the more detailed party platform today. It’s on the LP website.

Interested posters may want to read the Libertarian Party’s Statement of Principles, adopted in 1974 and still the basis for the more detailed party platform today. It’s on the LP website.

Why should we do that when we can just read lightly researched articles in broad brush troll posts?


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[kalm]

Interested posters may want to read the Libertarian Party’s Statement of Principles, adopted in 1974 and still the basis for the more detailed party platform today. It’s on the LP website.

Interested posters may want to read the Libertarian Party’s Statement of Principles, adopted in 1974 and still the basis for the more detailed party platform today. It’s on the LP website.

Why should we do that when we can just read lightly researched articles in broad brush troll posts?


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So dispute something from the article as non factual.

[CID1990]

Why should we do that when we can just read lightly researched articles in broad brush troll posts?


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So dispute something from the article as non factual.

I'm not the one who titled this thread -

you did

But since you asked - why don't you go back and read the first paragraph again - it does not appear that the AFP is arguing that businesses should simply stay open. They are arguing that they should not be ordered to close and that they should be able to adapt in ways that would protect public health AND stay open at the same time. Like, you know, working from home, takeout, etc.

That the author, in his last paragraph, treats AFP's teleworking policy as somehow ironic is pure slant. It's no wonder you pinged on this article.

[kalm]

So dispute something from the article as non factual.

I'm not the one who titled this thread -

you did

But since you asked - why don't you go back and read the first paragraph again - it does not appear that the AFP is arguing that businesses should simply stay open. They are arguing that they should not be ordered to close and that they should be able to adapt in ways that would protect public health AND stay open at the same time. Like, you know, working from home, takeout, etc.

That the author, in his last paragraph, treats AFP's teleworking policy as somehow ironic is pure slant. It's no wonder you pinged on this article.

This why I posted it. Libertarianism is nice in a world full of responsible and smart people and I dig the concept on many levels.

It’s like the WA state ban on golf and fishing. I will maintain social distancing and not get infected in my own cart on my own course or in my boat on the lake. So fuck the governor. (While i increase non-essential contact gassing up the truck, buying worms, grabbing the rail on the dock, forgetting I’m not suppose to use the ball washer, etc.

“Rather than blanket shutdowns, the government should allow businesses to continue to adapt and innovate to produce the goods and services Americans need, while continuing to do everything they can to protect the public health,” said Emily Seidel, chief executive of AFP, in a press release.

Some of the group’s state chapters have taken a similar tone. AFP Pennsylvania’s state director, as well as a regional director with the group, have taken to Twitter to lambast shelter-in-place policies. The Michigan chapter of AFP on Monday slammed Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order, which closed down fitness centers, nail salons, amusement parks, casinos, and other businesses deemed nonessential, calling it the “wrong approach for our state.”

[CID1990]

I'm not the one who titled this thread -

you did

But since you asked - why don't you go back and read the first paragraph again - it does not appear that the AFP is arguing that businesses should simply stay open. They are arguing that they should not be ordered to close and that they should be able to adapt in ways that would protect public health AND stay open at the same time. Like, you know, working from home, takeout, etc.

That the author, in his last paragraph, treats AFP's teleworking policy as somehow ironic is pure slant. It's no wonder you pinged on this article.

This why I posted it. Libertarianism is nice in a world full of responsible and smart people and I dig the concept on many levels.

It’s like the WA state ban on golf and fishing. I will maintain social distancing and not get infected in my own cart on my own course or in my boat on the lake. So fuck the governor. (While i increase non-essential contact gassing up the truck, buying worms, grabbing the rail on the dock, forgetting I’m not suppose to use the ball washer, etc.

“Rather than blanket shutdowns, the government should allow businesses to continue to adapt and innovate to produce the goods and services Americans need, while continuing to do everything they can to protect the public health,” said Emily Seidel, chief executive of AFP, in a press release.

Some of the group’s state chapters have taken a similar tone. AFP Pennsylvania’s state director, as well as a regional director with the group, have taken to Twitter to lambast shelter-in-place policies. The Michigan chapter of AFP on Monday slammed Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order, which closed down fitness centers, nail salons, amusement parks, casinos, and other businesses deemed nonessential, calling it the “wrong approach for our state.”

The article is, for all intensive purposes, a mischaracterization.


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[kalm]

This why I posted it. Libertarianism is nice in a world full of responsible and smart people and I dig the concept on many levels.

It’s like the WA state ban on golf and fishing. I will maintain social distancing and not get infected in my own cart on my own course or in my boat on the lake. So fuck the governor. (While i increase non-essential contact gassing up the truck, buying worms, grabbing the rail on the dock, forgetting I’m not suppose to use the ball washer, etc.

“Rather than blanket shutdowns, the government should allow businesses to continue to adapt and innovate to produce the goods and services Americans need, while continuing to do everything they can to protect the public health,” said Emily Seidel, chief executive of AFP, in a press release.

Some of the group’s state chapters have taken a similar tone. AFP Pennsylvania’s state director, as well as a regional director with the group, have taken to Twitter to lambast shelter-in-place policies. The Michigan chapter of AFP on Monday slammed Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order, which closed down fitness centers, nail salons, amusement parks, casinos, and other businesses deemed nonessential, calling it the “wrong approach for our state.”

The article is, for all intensive purposes, a mischaracterization.


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I’m sure you believe that, CID. Just like you
might disagree with the notion that there are times when the market can’t fix a particular problem and big government is an advantage.

Again, that’s why I posted this.

[CID1990]

The article is, for all intensive purposes, a mischaracterization.


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I’m sure you believe that, CID. Just like you
might disagree with the notion that there are times when the market can’t fix a particular problem and big government is an advantage.

Again, that’s why I posted this.

First of all, no ping on intensive purposes.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also - and this is what you statists don’t get...

Big, intrusive government isn’t a part time thing. You don’t switch it off when crises have passed. It stays and grows bigger and then people who like big government point to that time we used it and therefore no big deal. There is no mixed system when it comes to powerful, large, centralized government

its very similar to claiming the we have some socialistic behaviors and systems in America, so why shouldn’t we have just one or two more

So no, I do not disagree with the idea that big government solutions can be beneficial at times like these

I simply weigh the pros and cons, throw in a bit of knowledge of the history of how these things work, and decide that I am perfectly OK with the inevitable consequences of erring on the side of liberty

On a side note - in this day and age of social media there is nothing wrong with naming and shaming businesses that act irresponsibly. And it appears that social media pressure works. To me that is preferable to “there oughtta be a law”


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[kalm]

I’m sure you believe that, CID. Just like you
might disagree with the notion that there are times when the market can’t fix a particular problem and big government is an advantage.

Again, that’s why I posted this.

First of all, no ping on intensive purposes.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also - and this is what you statists don’t get...

Big, intrusive government isn’t a part time thing. You don’t switch it off when crises have passed. It stays and grows bigger and then people who like big government point to that time we used it and therefore no big deal. There is no mixed system when it comes to powerful, large, centralized government

its very similar to claiming the we have some socialistic behaviors and systems in America, so why shouldn’t we have just one or two more

So no, I do not disagree with the idea that big government solutions can be beneficial at times like these

I simply weigh the pros and cons, throw in a bit of knowledge of the history of how these things work, and decide that I am perfectly OK with the inevitable consequences of erring on the side of liberty

On a side note - in this day and age of social media there is nothing wrong with naming and shaming businesses that act irresponsibly. And it appears that social media pressure works. To me that is preferable to “there oughtta be a law”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Awwwww...maybe we can publicly shame companies into not polluting or stealing from the commons too!

In all seriousness, I like the points you’re making which is why I appreciate sparring with you despite your douchebaggery.

I will digest them a bit more because I think there’s some validity there and will be back armed for battle or waiving the white flag in the morning.

[CID1990]

First of all, no ping on intensive purposes.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also - and this is what you statists don’t get...

Big, intrusive government isn’t a part time thing. You don’t switch it off when crises have passed. It stays and grows bigger and then people who like big government point to that time we used it and therefore no big deal. There is no mixed system when it comes to powerful, large, centralized government

its very similar to claiming the we have some socialistic behaviors and systems in America, so why shouldn’t we have just one or two more

So no, I do not disagree with the idea that big government solutions can be beneficial at times like these

I simply weigh the pros and cons, throw in a bit of knowledge of the history of how these things work, and decide that I am perfectly OK with the inevitable consequences of erring on the side of liberty

On a side note - in this day and age of social media there is nothing wrong with naming and shaming businesses that act irresponsibly. And it appears that social media pressure works. To me that is preferable to “there oughtta be a law”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Awwwww...maybe we can publicly shame companies into not polluting or stealing from the commons too!

In all seriousness, I like the points you’re making which is why I appreciate sparring with you despite your douchebaggery.

I will digest them a bit more because I think there’s some validity there and will be back armed for battle or waiving the white flag in the morning.

Stop obfuscating - you know better than that

“Don’t dump coal ash in the river”

^^^^ that’s a perfectly legit law

“Close your delicatessen when the governor says so”

^^^ that is not


You wave your white flag and I’ll waive it


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[kalm]

Awwwww...maybe we can publicly shame companies into not polluting or stealing from the commons too!

In all seriousness, I like the points you’re making which is why I appreciate sparring with you despite your douchebaggery.

I will digest them a bit more because I think there’s some validity there and will be back armed for battle or waiving the white flag in the morning.

Stop obfuscating - you know better than that

“Don’t dump coal ash in the river”

^^^^ that’s a perfectly legit law

“Close your delicatessen when the governor says so”

^^^ that is not


You wave your white flag and I’ll waive it


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Meh. If your delicatessen has a chance to become ground zero for a waive 2 flare up when every other deli has acted responsibly then you’ve temporarily waved your right to be open as you see fit.

People have varying levels risk tolerance. The world doesn’t revolve around CID’s ideological fantasies and assumptions on rational self interest.

Besides, I can make a better pastrami on my Louisiana Grill.

[AZGrizFan]

I’m sure you believe that, CID. Just like you
might disagree with the notion that there are times when the market can’t fix a particular problem and big government is an advantage.

Again, that’s why I posted this.

First of all, no ping on intensive purposes.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also - and this is what you statists don’t get...

Big, intrusive government isn’t a part time thing. You don’t switch it off when crises have passed. It stays and grows bigger and then people who like big government point to that time we used it and therefore no big deal. There is no mixed system when it comes to powerful, large, centralized government

its very similar to claiming the we have some socialistic behaviors and systems in America, so why shouldn’t we have just one or two more

So no, I do not disagree with the idea that big government solutions can be beneficial at times like these

I simply weigh the pros and cons, throw in a bit of knowledge of the history of how these things work, and decide that I am perfectly OK with the inevitable consequences of erring on the side of liberty

On a side note - in this day and age of social media there is nothing wrong with naming and shaming businesses that act irresponsibly. And it appears that social media pressure works. To me that is preferable to “there oughtta be a law”


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1000% agree.

[AZGrizFan]

Stop obfuscating - you know better than that

“Don’t dump coal ash in the river”

^^^^ that’s a perfectly legit law

“Close your delicatessen when the governor says so”

^^^ that is not


You wave your white flag and I’ll waive it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Meh. If your delicatessen has a chance to become ground zero for a waive 2 flare up when every other deli has acted responsibly then you’ve temporarily waved your right to be open as you see fit.

People have varying levels risk tolerance. The world doesn’t revolve around CID’s ideological fantasies and assumptions on rational self interest.

Besides, I can make a better pastrami on my Louisiana Grill.

*wave

Prior to being ordered to shut down, here’s what businesses (some) in San Antonio were doing:

* removing every other table to enable social distancing
* leaving the door open so you didn’t have to touch the door handle
* disinfecting table/chairs after each use
* hand sanitizer at each table
* and the list goes on and on....

It IS possible to operate/stay open and not be complicit in the spread of the virus. But businesses weren’t given that option because of the heavy hand of government. It’s a slippery slope we descend when freedoms start being sacrificed in the name of “public safety”.

[kalm]

Meh. If your delicatessen has a chance to become ground zero for a waive 2 flare up when every other deli has acted responsibly then you’ve temporarily waved your right to be open as you see fit.

People have varying levels risk tolerance. The world doesn’t revolve around CID’s ideological fantasies and assumptions on rational self interest.

Besides, I can make a better pastrami on my Louisiana Grill.

*wave

Prior to being ordered to shut down, here’s what businesses (some) in San Antonio were doing:

* removing every other table to enable social distancing
* leaving the door open so you didn’t have to touch the door handle
* disinfecting table/chairs after each use
* hand sanitizer at each table
* and the list goes on and on....

It IS possible to operate/stay open and not be complicit in the spread of the virus. But businesses weren’t given that option because of the heavy hand of government. It’s a slippery slope we descend when freedoms start being sacrificed in the name of “public safety”.

Again...in this scenario you need 100% compliance until the curve is softened and no longer jeopardizes the healthcare system in each area. You remarked in the other thread how the hospital near your lake place is solid. How many respirators, PPE’s, and masks do they have? Are they equipped for sudden community spread? There are great hospitals all over the country that have been reduced to a shit show including Sun Valley ID. The virus simply doesn’t care.

Many restaurants would do it safely but not all. You’ve eaten steaks at restaurants where the cook rubbed his junk right before throwing yours on the grill.

[AZGrizFan]

*wave

Prior to being ordered to shut down, here’s what businesses (some) in San Antonio were doing:

* removing every other table to enable social distancing
* leaving the door open so you didn’t have to touch the door handle
* disinfecting table/chairs after each use
* hand sanitizer at each table
* and the list goes on and on....

It IS possible to operate/stay open and not be complicit in the spread of the virus. But businesses weren’t given that option because of the heavy hand of government. It’s a slippery slope we descend when freedoms start being sacrificed in the name of “public safety”.

Again...in this scenario you need 100% compliance until the curve is softened and no longer jeopardizes the healthcare system in each area. You remarked in the other thread how the hospital near your lake place is solid. How many respirators, PPE’s, and masks do they have? Are they equipped for sudden community spread? There are great hospitals all over the country that have been reduced to a shit show including Sun Valley ID. The virus simply doesn’t care.

Many restaurants would do it safely but not all. You’ve eaten steaks at restaurants where the cook rubbed his junk right before throwing yours on the grill.

How many lives/families/businesses are you willing to destroy in the name of “safety”?

[kalm]

Again...in this scenario you need 100% compliance until the curve is softened and no longer jeopardizes the healthcare system in each area. You remarked in the other thread how the hospital near your lake place is solid. How many respirators, PPE’s, and masks do they have? Are they equipped for sudden community spread? There are great hospitals all over the country that have been reduced to a shit show including Sun Valley ID. The virus simply doesn’t care.

Many restaurants would do it safely but not all. You’ve eaten steaks at restaurants where the cook rubbed his junk right before throwing yours on the grill.

How many lives/families/businesses are you willing to destroy in the name of “safety”?

I won’t be destroying a single one. The virus will. And that includes the potential for mine to not recover as well a several friends who own small businesses.

But you’re right in stumbling across the core issue of tolerance levels. We’re at war. Control the spread through better knowledge of the enemy, testing, anti-viral meds (which are looking promising), and ultimately vaccines. Go into battle with your best armor and fight to win.

[AZGrizFan]

How many lives/families/businesses are you willing to destroy in the name of “safety”?

I won’t be destroying a single one. The virus will. And that includes the potential for mine to not recover as well a several friends who own small businesses.

But you’re right in stumbling across the core issue of tolerance levels. We’re at war. Control the spread through better knowledge of the enemy, testing, anti-viral meds (which are looking promising), and ultimately vaccines. Go into battle with your best armor and fight to win.

The virus won’t destroy nearly as many as the government “cure” will.

And THAT is a stone cold fact.

[Winterborn]

I’m sure you believe that, CID. Just like you
might disagree with the notion that there are times when the market can’t fix a particular problem and big government is an advantage.

Again, that’s why I posted this.

First of all, no ping on intensive purposes.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also - and this is what you statists don’t get...

Big, intrusive government isn’t a part time thing. You don’t switch it off when crises have passed. It stays and grows bigger and then people who like big government point to that time we used it and therefore no big deal. There is no mixed system when it comes to powerful, large, centralized government

its very similar to claiming the we have some socialistic behaviors and systems in America, so why shouldn’t we have just one or two more

So no, I do not disagree with the idea that big government solutions can be beneficial at times like these

I simply weigh the pros and cons, throw in a bit of knowledge of the history of how these things work, and decide that I am perfectly OK with the inevitable consequences of erring on the side of liberty

On a side note - in this day and age of social media there is nothing wrong with naming and shaming businesses that act irresponsibly. And it appears that social media pressure works. To me that is preferable to “there oughtta be a law”


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Well stated.

[kalm]

I won’t be destroying a single one. The virus will. And that includes the potential for mine to not recover as well a several friends who own small businesses.

But you’re right in stumbling across the core issue of tolerance levels. We’re at war. Control the spread through better knowledge of the enemy, testing, anti-viral meds (which are looking promising), and ultimately vaccines. Go into battle with your best armor and fight to win.

The virus won’t destroy nearly as many as the government “cure” will.

And THAT is a stone cold fact.

No. That would be an emotional and political based predictive stone cold lock.

[CAA Flagship]

Besides, I can make a better pastrami on my Louisiana Grill.

Not with lower grade pastrami.

[AZGrizFan]

The virus won’t destroy nearly as many as the government “cure” will.

And THAT is a stone cold fact.

No. That would be an emotional and political based predictive stone cold lock.

If we’re still here talking about “lock downs” and “quarantines” and “sheltering in place” 30 days from now, it’s a stone cold lock. It’s already well on it’s way.