11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote:
kalm wrote:
Why? Christianity misrepresents God on a daily basis.

:coffee:
Your proof for that?
Seriously, Clark?

:ohno:
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by CID1990 »

Buddhism and Christianity share a significant number of parables

They are generally used to convey the same central tenets, but sometimes not

One of the most important parables in both religions is the Prodigal Son. The parable is used to teach different things but the parable itself is essentially the same. In Buddhism it is found in the Lotus Sutra


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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by JoltinJoe »

CID1990 wrote:Buddhism and Christianity share a significant number of parables

They are generally used to convey the same central tenets, but sometimes not

One of the most important parables in both religions is the Prodigal Son. The parable is used to teach different things but the parable itself is essentially the same. In Buddhism it is found in the Lotus Sutra


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The first known appearance of the Buddhist "version" of the Prodigal Son was in the Lotus Sutra, which was written near the end of the second century. As such, it is the Buddhist version of the parable which comes second in time and it was likely influenced by the parable recorded in Luke's Gospel.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by JoltinJoe »

Chizzang wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
You do what you do, but misrepresenting Christianity isn't right.
I'm not misrepresenting Christianity in any way...
Please identify exactly where..?

Just because Joe differs in opinion - he doesn't have any more "facts" than anybody else
He just spins them to serve his desired outcome

Which I'm totally cool with
and then he typically resorts to calling me names
(which is usually what people do when they are winning a debate, start name calling)

Anyway...
God is a fascinating topic and always will be for me
it doesn't frighten me and I will always accept new information
and alter my opinion based on the quality of that new information

You and Joe do not have that luxury

:nod:
I never call you names. I do say you are lazy and less-informed than you represent -- and try to conceal these things with your obvious gift for clever expression and circuitous argument. That's not name calling.

Like this subject. You started this by suggesting that Christian "stories" were derived from Buddhism. I said that this is not so. I asked you to document your claim.

You then tried to confuse matters by taking this off on a tangent about whether the Christian miracle stories are worthy of belief. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the Christian stories derived from Buddhism. Let's agree for a moment that the Christian miracle stories are silly. That these miracle stories are silly, and not worthy of belief by one with such a commanding intellect as you, does not mean that they were derived from Buddhism.

You then tried to avert my question by claiming that the Christian miracle stories were fairy tales whipped up much later by Christians. I then tried to point out that the miracle of Paul confronting the risen Christ on the Road to Damascus was actually recorded in written form, in Paul's epistles, at a time very close to the time of the Crucifixion. But again, let's continue to assume that the miracle stories are silly and they were concocted later in the first century, when the Gospels were written. That doesn't mean they were derived from Buddhism.

In your only effort to address my question, you cited the miracle of the Buddha walking on water -- a story that most scholars agree is inconsistent with the core "inward" focus of Buddhism. Buddhism, in its initial and purest form eschewed the "miraculous." This aspect of the Buddha folklore would seemingly be "tacked on" later, like many of the Buddha miracle stories. In this regard, the spread of miracle stories in Buddhism might have resulted through the East's exposure, in the time shortly after Christ, to the Judeo-Christian traditions.

I said that the Christian concern with the "miraculous" flows from the Jewish tradition of miracles being seen as a sign of God's presence or favor. The miracle stories in the New Testament continue in the tradition of Moses parting the Red Sea, or the Burning Bush, etc. Thus, Christian miracle stories do not derive from Buddhism, but instead from within the same earlier Jewish tradition in which the Gospels are later written.

CID brought up the parable of the "prodigal son" which exists, in significantly variant forms, in Luke's Gospel and in the Lotus Sutra. But the Lotus Sutra isn't written until the later part of the second century -- long after the Gospel of Luke.

In Christian tradition, it is asserted that the Apostle Thomas arrived in India in around the year 50 and founded a Eastern Christian church that spread rapidly. Most historians accept this as fact. It is only AFTER Thomas's arrival in the East did the cited parallels between Christianity and Buddhism emerge -- or, at least, were these "parallels" first found in the written Buddhist folklore.

Your assumption is that these parallels exist because Buddhism pre-dates Christianity and thus aspects of Buddhism influenced Christianity. However, it is more likely that Buddhism began to adopt aspects of Christian folklore, as Christianity was introduced and spread in the East. This would explain why these parallels can be documented in Buddhism only after the arrival of Christianity in the East.

Thus, it is likely that Buddhist folklore was influenced by the spread of Christianity -- just as the spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire resulted in changes of many of the pagan myths, such as Mithra, to adopt aspects of the popular (and quickly spreading) Christian stories.
Last edited by JoltinJoe on Sat May 18, 2019 5:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:Your proof for that?
Seriously, Clark?

:ohno:
Yes. How about three examples. Not that it isn't true, just would like to see what you feel is wrong.
Last edited by SeattleGriz on Sat May 18, 2019 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by SeattleGriz »

Chizzang wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
You do what you do, but misrepresenting Christianity isn't right.
I'm not misrepresenting Christianity in any way...
Please identify exactly where..?
Do you see how this works? You make a claim, get called out on it and never answer what you were called out for, but then expect specifics from others.

So, to keep up with that...specific to this thread, you make broad based claims of how God operates, then in the same post, claim God isn't bound to that area because nobody knows. Well, if nobody knows, you don't either. Can't have it both ways.

The best analogy I can think of is if you were to read a book about the problems of a math theory, but never actually performed the math. You get the gist, but miss the underpinnings.
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by CID1990 »

JoltinJoe wrote:
CID1990 wrote:Buddhism and Christianity share a significant number of parables

They are generally used to convey the same central tenets, but sometimes not

One of the most important parables in both religions is the Prodigal Son. The parable is used to teach different things but the parable itself is essentially the same. In Buddhism it is found in the Lotus Sutra


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The first known appearance of the Buddhist "version" of the Prodigal Son was in the Lotus Sutra, which was written near the end of the second century. As such, it is the Buddhist version of the parable which comes second in time and it was likely influenced by the parable recorded in Luke's Gospel.
I’m not trying to claim influence in either direction -

The final iteration of the Lotus Sutra is traced to about 150 AD and it was translated from Sanskrit into Mandarin, which means it likely originated somewhere around modern Bangladesh. There was little to no cultural exchange between the West and that area of Asia during the mid Roman period

But- although this particular Dharma text dates to around 150 AD, it is contemporary with the Gospel of St Luke (which contains the parable in question) which was likely last edited around 200 AD.

If anything, this suggests a common story- one which was likely circulated long before either text was conceived. Anthropologically speaking, if the stories in parallel are not a coincidence, then it *could* date to the days of Alexander when there actually was cultural contact between the West and the Far East


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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by Ivytalk »

A theology debate with JoltinJoe is about as winnable as a land war in Southeast Asia.

The man is dedicated and prepared.

If I needed a lawyer in his part of NY, I’d want him in my corner.
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by CID1990 »

Ivytalk wrote:A theology debate with JoltinJoe is about as winnable as a land war in Southeast Asia.

The man is dedicated and prepared.

If I needed a lawyer in his part of NY, I’d want him in my corner.
I don’t debate religion with Joe or anyone else

(except I do ridicule purely faith-based arguments)

I see the discussion of comparing world religions as more anthropological in nature .... though you cannot have that discussion with fundamentalists of any stripe because anthropology assumed that we and our planet have been around for a very short time

I don’t think we have any of those here but who knows


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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by Chizzang »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I'm not misrepresenting Christianity in any way...
Please identify exactly where..?

Just because Joe differs in opinion - he doesn't have any more "facts" than anybody else
He just spins them to serve his desired outcome

Which I'm totally cool with
and then he typically resorts to calling me names
(which is usually what people do when they are winning a debate, start name calling)

Anyway...
God is a fascinating topic and always will be for me
it doesn't frighten me and I will always accept new information
and alter my opinion based on the quality of that new information

You and Joe do not have that luxury

:nod:

In your only effort to address my question, you cited the miracle of the Buddha walking on water -- a story that most scholars agree is inconsistent with the core "inward" focus of Buddhism. Buddhism, in its initial and purest form eschewed the "miraculous." This aspect of the Buddha folklore would seemingly be "tacked on" later, like many of the Buddha miracle stories. In this regard, the spread of miracle stories in Buddhism might have resulted through the East's exposure, in the time shortly after Christ, to the Judeo-Christian traditions.
Thanks for the update,
I never implied that "all the stories" came from Buddhism
but the Buddha walking on water is an excellent example
and there are indeed scholars that believe it predates any written gospel by at least 200 years
and some as much as 450 years (either is a long damned time)

So my point still stands... you're certainly allowed to dismiss it as you wish
but it stands as a perfectly valid example

also I would never argue your expertise - but I would argue your bias
Note: If it's such a burden to work with me - why do you go to such great lengths ?
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:"Why is it that most people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to fuck anyway."

- Carlin
:suspicious:

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by houndawg »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I'm not misrepresenting Christianity in any way...
Please identify exactly where..?

Just because Joe differs in opinion - he doesn't have any more "facts" than anybody else
He just spins them to serve his desired outcome

Which I'm totally cool with
and then he typically resorts to calling me names
(which is usually what people do when they are winning a debate, start name calling)

Anyway...
God is a fascinating topic and always will be for me
it doesn't frighten me and I will always accept new information
and alter my opinion based on the quality of that new information

You and Joe do not have that luxury

:nod:
I never call you names. I do say you are lazy and less-informed than you represent -- and try to conceal these things with your obvious gift for clever expression and circuitous argument. That's not name calling.

Like this subject. You started this by suggesting that Christian "stories" were derived from Buddhism. I said that this is not so. I asked you to document your claim.

You then tried to confuse matters by taking this off on a tangent about whether the Christian miracle stories are worthy of belief. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the Christian stories derived from Buddhism. Let's agree for a moment that the Christian miracle stories are silly. That these miracle stories are silly, and not worthy of belief by one with such a commanding intellect as you, does not mean that they were derived from Buddhism.

You then tried to avert my question by claiming that the Christian miracle stories were fairy tales whipped up much later by Christians. I then tried to point out that the miracle of Paul confronting the risen Christ on the Road to Damascus was actually recorded in written form, in Paul's epistles, at a time very close to the time of the Crucifixion. But again, let's continue to assume that the miracle stories are silly and they were concocted later in the first century, when the Gospels were written. That doesn't mean they were derived from Buddhism.

In your only effort to address my question, you cited the miracle of the Buddha walking on water -- a story that most scholars agree is inconsistent with the core "inward" focus of Buddhism. Buddhism, in its initial and purest form eschewed the "miraculous." This aspect of the Buddha folklore would seemingly be "tacked on" later, like many of the Buddha miracle stories. In this regard, the spread of miracle stories in Buddhism might have resulted through the East's exposure, in the time shortly after Christ, to the Judeo-Christian traditions.

I said that the Christian concern with the "miraculous" flows from the Jewish tradition of miracles being seen as a sign of God's presence or favor. The miracle stories in the New Testament continue in the tradition of Moses parting the Red Sea, or the Burning Bush, etc. Thus, Christian miracle stories do not derive from Buddhism, but instead from within the same earlier Jewish tradition in which the Gospels are later written.

CID brought up the parable of the "prodigal son" which exists, in significantly variant forms, in Luke's Gospel and in the Lotus Sutra. But the Lotus Sutra isn't written until the later part of the second century -- long after the Gospel of Luke.

In Christian tradition, it is asserted that the Apostle Thomas arrived in India in around the year 50 and founded a Eastern Christian church that spread rapidly. Most historians accept this as fact. It is only AFTER Thomas's arrival in the East did the cited parallels between Christianity and Buddhism emerge -- or, at least, were these "parallels" first found in the written Buddhist folklore.

Your assumption is that these parallels exist because Buddhism pre-dates Christianity and thus aspects of Buddhism influenced Christianity. However, it is more likely that Buddhism began to adopt aspects of Christian folklore, as Christianity was introduced and spread in the East. This would explain why these parallels can be documented in Buddhism only after the arrival of Christianity in the East.

Thus, it is likely that Buddhist folklore was influenced by the spread of Christianity -- just as the spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire resulted in changes of many of the pagan myths, such as Mithra, to adopt aspects of the popular (and quickly spreading) Christian stories.
I don't agree with this, several of the "miracles" have a scientific basis. Burning bush, parting of the "Red Sea", water from a rock (saw this one), the one about picking up birds on the shore. Just because there are zero first-hand accounts of this person Jesus who may or may not have existed doesn't mean all the stories in the bible are wrong.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by dbackjon »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
The prosperity gospel..?

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Well there you have it.

Classic Cleats. Thank you for the fun.
Yes, the prosperity gospel teachings are not Christian. Neither is the Rapture. Neither are the majority of evangelical teachings and actions.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by Ibanez »

houndawg wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I never call you names. I do say you are lazy and less-informed than you represent -- and try to conceal these things with your obvious gift for clever expression and circuitous argument. That's not name calling.

Like this subject. You started this by suggesting that Christian "stories" were derived from Buddhism. I said that this is not so. I asked you to document your claim.

You then tried to confuse matters by taking this off on a tangent about whether the Christian miracle stories are worthy of belief. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the Christian stories derived from Buddhism. Let's agree for a moment that the Christian miracle stories are silly. That these miracle stories are silly, and not worthy of belief by one with such a commanding intellect as you, does not mean that they were derived from Buddhism.

You then tried to avert my question by claiming that the Christian miracle stories were fairy tales whipped up much later by Christians. I then tried to point out that the miracle of Paul confronting the risen Christ on the Road to Damascus was actually recorded in written form, in Paul's epistles, at a time very close to the time of the Crucifixion. But again, let's continue to assume that the miracle stories are silly and they were concocted later in the first century, when the Gospels were written. That doesn't mean they were derived from Buddhism.

In your only effort to address my question, you cited the miracle of the Buddha walking on water -- a story that most scholars agree is inconsistent with the core "inward" focus of Buddhism. Buddhism, in its initial and purest form eschewed the "miraculous." This aspect of the Buddha folklore would seemingly be "tacked on" later, like many of the Buddha miracle stories. In this regard, the spread of miracle stories in Buddhism might have resulted through the East's exposure, in the time shortly after Christ, to the Judeo-Christian traditions.

I said that the Christian concern with the "miraculous" flows from the Jewish tradition of miracles being seen as a sign of God's presence or favor. The miracle stories in the New Testament continue in the tradition of Moses parting the Red Sea, or the Burning Bush, etc. Thus, Christian miracle stories do not derive from Buddhism, but instead from within the same earlier Jewish tradition in which the Gospels are later written.

CID brought up the parable of the "prodigal son" which exists, in significantly variant forms, in Luke's Gospel and in the Lotus Sutra. But the Lotus Sutra isn't written until the later part of the second century -- long after the Gospel of Luke.

In Christian tradition, it is asserted that the Apostle Thomas arrived in India in around the year 50 and founded a Eastern Christian church that spread rapidly. Most historians accept this as fact. It is only AFTER Thomas's arrival in the East did the cited parallels between Christianity and Buddhism emerge -- or, at least, were these "parallels" first found in the written Buddhist folklore.

Your assumption is that these parallels exist because Buddhism pre-dates Christianity and thus aspects of Buddhism influenced Christianity. However, it is more likely that Buddhism began to adopt aspects of Christian folklore, as Christianity was introduced and spread in the East. This would explain why these parallels can be documented in Buddhism only after the arrival of Christianity in the East.

Thus, it is likely that Buddhist folklore was influenced by the spread of Christianity -- just as the spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire resulted in changes of many of the pagan myths, such as Mithra, to adopt aspects of the popular (and quickly spreading) Christian stories.
I don't agree with this, several of the "miracles" have a scientific basis. Burning bush, parting of the "Red Sea", water from a rock (saw this one), the one about picking up birds on the shore. Just because there are zero first-hand accounts of this person Jesus who may or may not have existed doesn't mean all the stories in the bible are wrong.
There are logical, natural reasons for the 10 Plagues.

They have been observed (well, most of them, to a certain extent.)

Something might've been a miracle on 30 AD, but only because the population lacked the understanding of what they were witnessing. There are logical, science based reasons for many of these miracles. And let's not forgot that a lot of things are attributed to people LONG after they've died. A nd a lot of "saints" were made out of monarchs. The English were really good about this ( I think Edward the Peaceable is one. Maybe it was Edward the Confessor).
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:
houndawg wrote:
I don't agree with this, several of the "miracles" have a scientific basis. Burning bush, parting of the "Red Sea", water from a rock (saw this one), the one about picking up birds on the shore. Just because there are zero first-hand accounts of this person Jesus who may or may not have existed doesn't mean all the stories in the bible are wrong.
There are logical, natural reasons for the 10 Plagues.

They have been observed (well, most of them, to a certain extent.)

Something might've been a miracle on 30 AD, but only because the population lacked the understanding of what they were witnessing. There are logical, science based reasons for many of these miracles. And let's not forgot that a lot of things are attributed to people LONG after they've died. A nd a lot of "saints" were made out of monarchs. The English were really good about this ( I think Edward the Peaceable is one. Maybe it was Edward the Confessor).
Did either of the nearly stand up to the viscous Chicken of Bristol?
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by Ivytalk »

kalm wrote:
Ibanez wrote: There are logical, natural reasons for the 10 Plagues.

They have been observed (well, most of them, to a certain extent.)

Something might've been a miracle on 30 AD, but only because the population lacked the understanding of what they were witnessing. There are logical, science based reasons for many of these miracles. And let's not forgot that a lot of things are attributed to people LONG after they've died. A nd a lot of "saints" were made out of monarchs. The English were really good about this ( I think Edward the Peaceable is one. Maybe it was Edward the Confessor).
Did either of the nearly stand up to the viscous Chicken of Bristol?
*vicious

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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by css75 »

BDKJMU wrote:If it was consensual, JSO says its ok...

That has been known to happen in Louisiana. Very pitiful situation, I think MJ is right about neutering the rapist. It isn’t the unborn babies fault, but neither is it the fault of the 11 year old girl.


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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by CID1990 »

Ivytalk wrote:
kalm wrote:
Did either of the nearly stand up to the viscous Chicken of Bristol?
*vicious

Yes, with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!
He could be viscous, if he was in a stew.
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by CID1990 »

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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by Pwns »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:"Why is it that most people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to fuck anyway."

- Carlin
:suspicious:

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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by JoltinJoe »

CID1990 wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
The first known appearance of the Buddhist "version" of the Prodigal Son was in the Lotus Sutra, which was written near the end of the second century. As such, it is the Buddhist version of the parable which comes second in time and it was likely influenced by the parable recorded in Luke's Gospel.
I’m not trying to claim influence in either direction -

The final iteration of the Lotus Sutra is traced to about 150 AD and it was translated from Sanskrit into Mandarin, which means it likely originated somewhere around modern Bangladesh. There was little to no cultural exchange between the West and that area of Asia during the mid Roman period

But- although this particular Dharma text dates to around 150 AD, it is contemporary with the Gospel of St Luke (which contains the parable in question) which was likely last edited around 200 AD.

If anything, this suggests a common story- one which was likely circulated long before either text was conceived. Anthropologically speaking, if the stories in parallel are not a coincidence, then it *could* date to the days of Alexander when there actually was cultural contact between the West and the Far East


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I don't have any quarrel with these points.

I'm just noting that it is facile to claim that, because two traditions share some parallel "story," the newer tradition adapted that story from the earlier tradition. As you seem to acknowledge, it can work the other way around: the older tradition sees something in a new movement that story then gets weaved into its existing folklore.

Having watched many first century on-line history lessons (Yale and others) while I do cardio workouts -- hey, why waste that time listening to a Doors album for the 1000th time? -- I believe it is more likely that as Christianity spread throughout the world during the First Century, the East became exposed the Judeo/Christian tradition of the "miracle" story. I say this because Eastern religions, at their core, do not focus on the "miraculous" as a sign of favor or the presence of God. "The miraculous" is a distinctly Judeo/Christian tradition going back to the first books of the Bible.

Of course, there is no way to substantiate this with certainty, but I do think it is a fair inference.

The spread of Christianity throughout the world in the First Century is miraculous in itself -- but that's a discussion for another day. Suffice to say the story of how a religious movemement centered on a crucified insurrectionist, who left but a handful of fearful followers chased into hiding, survived and thrived against active and violent persecution, makes for interesting reading and thought. Christianity is the only existing major world religion that persevered against a culture or society that the religion did not serve to "affirm." It is the only world religion that exists despite being persecuted by the culture in which it developed. Fascinating. (Maybe miraculous?).
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by 89Hen »

Pwns wrote:Also this: ("pro-life barbie")
Yup. Those two are a large chunk of the pro-choice folks. But the pro choice folks love to talk about the 0.000000000001% of pro-life folks who take to violence at clinics or towards doctors and think it's equitable.
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

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CID1990 wrote:Image




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Does she have to worry about anyone impregnating her? I think not.


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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by dbackjon »

89Hen wrote:
Pwns wrote:Also this: ("pro-life barbie")
Yup. Those two are a large chunk of the pro-choice folks. But the pro choice folks love to talk about the 0.000000000001% of pro-life folks who take to violence at clinics or towards doctors and think it's equitable.

When is the last time a Forced-Birther was murdered by a Pro-Choice Liberty seeker?
NewsFlash - NEVER.

The Forced Birth movement has plenty of violence stemming from it - something that you need to own.
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Re: 11 yr. old rape victim must carry and deliver baby...

Post by 89Hen »

dbackjon wrote:When is the last time a Forced-Birther was murdered by a Pro-Choice Liberty seeker?
NewsFlash - NEVER.

The Forced Birth movement has plenty of violence stemming from it - something that you need to own.
When you post like that Jon, you're hard to take seriously. Telling you as a friend.

Look up Harlan Drake, but that wasn't really the point. There are physical attacks on pro-life folks just about every day. I would guess far more than the other way around. Much of the pro-life movement centers around prayer (not me personally). I think there have been two shootings by pro-life folks in the last 20+ years. FTR, I am totally against any kind of violence from either side.
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