Whoops!

[dbackjon]

Solution: Fine the people who hire them a very large sum of money.


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Fines are just another cost of doing business (ask Wall Street). Shackles, jail, and parole are more effective.

Correct. Time to slap white collar criminals in jail. No buying way out.

[JohnStOnge]

Then cripple them, enforce the **** laws on the books or change them.

**** the crybaby welfare farmers

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I can agree with the enforce them or change them sentiment. But the end result would probably be to change them. We'd have to liberalize immigration law. My understanding is that if we were able to snap our fingers and deport all illegal immigrants right now it would devastate our economy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-im ... ers-taxes/

[BDKJMU]

"roughly half of the nation's 1.4 million field workers (47 percent, or 685,000 workers) are undocumented immigrants. And that estimate, from the Labor Department, is a conservative one with labor experts citing far higher percentages..."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 075320002/

farmers, ranchers, and other business owners who rely on undocumented immigrants say passing an E-Verify bill would cripple their industries. Already struggling to recruit enough Americans to do the back-breaking field work, and operating under the constant threat of raids by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, they say implementing E-Verify with no other changes to the immigration system would put untold numbers of companies out of business.

The USA Today article is shallow, shoddy, journalism. Posted this on another thread in May:

Your point that our agriculture is so dependent on illegal immigrant labor that we would see massive increases overnight without it is hogwash. The country could survive without illegal immigrant labor in the ag sector. Prices would go up some, but we would adapt:
-There is no magic wand that would make illegal immigrant labor disappear overnight. If it was somehow eliminated or reduced, it would be gradual..
-Labor costs would increase, but at the farm level they're less than 10% of supermarket food costs. WaPo article said about 8%, below says 5%-6%.

"...Further, research by Philip Martin, a leading expert on farm labor and migration issues, found that labor costs are negligible compared to the retail cost of produce. Martin in 2006 found that only 5-6 cents of every dollar spent on produce is due to labor costs. Therefore, if illegal aliens were removed from the labor force entirely, and labor costs rose by up to 40 percent to attract American workers, labor would still only account for 7-9 cents. ..."

https://nationaleconomicseditorial.com/ ... riculture/
Some of the points from th Exec summary on pages 1-2 of the below 33 pg report:

• Authorized workers are observed to be willing to accept wages that are 18 percent higher than unauthorized
workers in the fruits, nuts, and vegetable sector and 22 percent higher in field crops and grains.
• American citizen and legal resident farm workers work significantly longer hours compared with those who
are unauthorized.
• If unauthorized workers were replaced by authorized workers at the higher average wage rate authorized
workers currently earn, farms in the fruits, nuts, and vegetable sector would experience a total labor cost increase of 10 percent, and the increase for the field crops and grains sector would be 6 percent.

https://fairus.org/sites/default/files/ ... ev2013.pdf
-Increase in mechanization to replace manual labor due to the higher labor coats (this is already happening and has been for awhile- see 1st link).
-A creation of a much better guest worker program for seasonal ag workers than have now (alot of the same laborers, but would be here legally).

[BDKJMU]

Then cripple them, enforce the **** laws on the books or change them.

**** the crybaby welfare farmers

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I can agree with the enforce them or change them sentiment. But the end result would probably be to change them. We'd have to liberalize immigration law. My understanding is that if we were able to snap our fingers and deport all illegal immigrants right now it would devastate our economy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-im ... ers-taxes/

Again, I'm calling BS on the ag claim. See above.

[Chizzang]

The USA Today article is shallow, shoddy, journalism. Posted this on another thread in May:

Well this is a perfect opportunity for you to explain to us
why so many Conservative Farmers are on the wrong side of this issue then..?

Including the Republican congressman farmer who hired the murderer

We're all ears...

[JohnStOnge]

I can agree with the enforce them or change them sentiment. But the end result would probably be to change them. We'd have to liberalize immigration law. My understanding is that if we were able to snap our fingers and deport all illegal immigrants right now it would devastate our economy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-im ... ers-taxes/

Again, I'm calling BS on the ag claim. See above.

Well, I guess we are at an impasse. I consider something like CBS News to be a more credible source than the sources you linked and you probably do not.

Also, one thing I will always remember is what happened when Alabama passed an extremely strong anti illegal immigrant law a few years back. It ended up being overturned in court. But before it did there was clearly all kinds of pushback from various State industries including agriculture.

[BDKJMU]

The USA Today article is shallow, shoddy, journalism. Posted this on another thread in May:

Well this is a perfect opportunity for you to explain to us
why so many Conservative Farmers are on the wrong side of this issue then..?

Including the Republican congressman farmer who hired the murderer

We're all ears...

-The farmers/ranchers can't wave a magic wand to get rid of the disincentives to work (unemployment/welfare & social services bennies) that the USCs have. Current pay in those ag jobs can't beat those disincentives by enough considering how hard the work is. The illegals have to do those jobs for the current pay because they have no other choice.
-The farmers/ranchers can't afford can't afford to, or can't afford to be the 1st guy, to pay the higher wages to get all legal/USC labor, when their competitors aren't.
-The farmers/ranchers can't afford to, or can't afford to be the 1st guy, to try to replace much of the manual labor with mechanization, when their competitors, aren't.

The US govt created this mess, so they should be the ones to attempt to fix it (which they probably won't):
-Improved guest worker/e verify.
-Incentives to hire USCs/legals.
-Incentives to mechanize to replace manual labor (more expensive short term/cheaper long term).

[houndawg]

Kalm, you are right, I stand corrected.

Not if the fines are high enough.

"First offenders can be fined $250-$2,000 per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
Three or more offenses can cost an employer $3000-$10,000 per illegal employee. A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to six months in jail for an employer."
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/ ... rants.html

Now if you made it:
-1st offense say $50,000-$100,000 per illegal
-2nd offense $100,000-$200,000 per illegal
-3rd offense $200,000-$500,000
A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to 1 year in jail[/b for an employer.
And paired that with an increase in workplace enforcement/raids, that would be effective. Those level fines could literally bankrupt businesses that hired illegals. It would be such a financial risk that far fewer would do it, and many businesses that currently employ illegals would instead pay more for legal labor..

That's not nearly enough time for some body bringing in people as dangerous as these. The farmer should be charged as an accessory

[SeattleGriz]

Every life matters, and that is enough to bring about change.

Did I get that one right? Isn't that how that line is supposed to work?

Should the Republican farmer who was employing him be charged too?

First off, I was using an well worn statement as a joke.

Secondly, if the farmer can show they made a good faith effort to verify employment status, then no, I do not believe they should be held accountable.

While there isn't a big problem with illegal immigrants on Montana farms due to the crops (wheat), I do see it here in Washington were fruit needs to be picked.

Personally, I have never had a problem with anyone who wants to work. I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides. Probably a lot of common ground that could be implemented that would allow workers to come here, but yet get them fully "registered".

[kalm]

Should the Republican farmer who was employing him be charged too?

First off, I was using an well worn statement as a joke.

Secondly, if the farmer can show they made a good faith effort to verify employment status, then no, I do not believe they should be held accountable.

While there isn't a big problem with illegal immigrants on Montana farms due to the crops (wheat), I do see it here in Washington were fruit needs to be picked.

Personally, I have never had a problem with anyone who wants to work. I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides. Probably a lot of common ground that could be implemented that would allow workers to come here, but yet get them fully "registered".

I have a mexican friend who grew up in southern Idaho. He likes to tell people that his dad used to be a boxer. Everyone always looks surprised. "Yeah...he boxed apples, he boxed cherries, he boxed peaches...."

[CAA Flagship]

I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides.

I'd like to hear the explanation, or interpretation, for the "all or nothing" stances. What is "all" and who wants it, and what is "nothing" and who supports that?

[CAA Flagship]

First off, I was using an well worn statement as a joke.

Secondly, if the farmer can show they made a good faith effort to verify employment status, then no, I do not believe they should be held accountable.

While there isn't a big problem with illegal immigrants on Montana farms due to the crops (wheat), I do see it here in Washington were fruit needs to be picked.

Personally, I have never had a problem with anyone who wants to work. I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides. Probably a lot of common ground that could be implemented that would allow workers to come here, but yet get them fully "registered".

I have a mexican friend who grew up in southern Idaho. He likes to tell people that his dad used to be boxer. Everyone always looks surprised. "Yeah...he boxed apples, he boxed cherries, he boxed peaches...."

And I worked as a Petroleum Transfer Engineer for a couple of summers. I pumped gas at a gas station.

[kalm]

I have a mexican friend who grew up in southern Idaho. He likes to tell people that his dad used to be boxer. Everyone always looks surprised. "Yeah...he boxed apples, he boxed cherries, he boxed peaches...."

And I worked as a Petroleum Transfer Engineer for a couple of summers. I pumped gas at a gas station.

The patrons couldn’t pump their own gas?

[SeattleGriz]

I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides.

I'd like to hear the explanation, or interpretation, for the "all or nothing" stances. What is "all" and who wants it, and what is "nothing" and who supports that?

The typical battle of if it doesn't align with the Dem or Reps stance 100% then it gets voted down. No compromise whatsoever.

That's what I meant by all or nothing.

Hell, the current battle is the wall vs open borders. There is no common ground somewhere in that?

[Vidav]

And I worked as a Petroleum Transfer Engineer for a couple of summers. I pumped gas at a gas station.

The patrons couldn’t pump their own gas?

[93henfan]

And I worked as a Petroleum Transfer Engineer for a couple of summers. I pumped gas at a gas station.

The patrons couldn’t pump their own gas?

Not in Oregon and New Jersey apparently.

I made a gas-jockey angry in NJ last year. Stopped and got out of my car. He made me get back in, took my credit card, swiped it, handed it back to me, started the pump, and walked off.

When the pump clicked off, I got out of my car, hung the nozzle up, put cap on, closed fuel door, got in and drove off.

The guy comes running toward me, "hey, wait!!!"

WTF? You ran my card. I don't need to stick around.

I gave him the finger and kept on driving. Fuck New Jersey.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Then cripple them, enforce the **** laws on the books or change them.

**** the crybaby welfare farmers

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I can agree with the enforce them or change them sentiment. But the end result would probably be to change them. We'd have to liberalize immigration law. My understanding is that if we were able to snap our fingers and deport all illegal immigrants right now it would devastate our economy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-im ... ers-taxes/

Bullshit, do it and prove it

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[andy7171]

I have a mexican friend who grew up in southern Idaho. He likes to tell people that his dad used to be boxer. Everyone always looks surprised. "Yeah...he boxed apples, he boxed cherries, he boxed peaches...."

And I worked as a Petroleum Transfer Engineer for a couple of summers. I pumped gas at a gas station.

. My first job was a PTE!


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[andy7171]

The patrons couldn’t pump their own gas?

Not in Oregon and New Jersey apparently.

I made a gas-jockey angry in NJ last year. Stopped and got out of my car. He made me get back in, took my credit card, swiped it, handed it back to me, started the pump, and walked off.

When the pump clicked off, I got out of my car, hung the nozzle up, put cap on, closed fuel door, got in and drove off.

The guy comes running toward me, "hey, wait!!!"

WTF? You ran my card. I don't need to stick around.

I gave him the finger and kept on driving. Fuck New Jersey.

Yeah. It’s annoying. But the gas is still cheaper somehow.


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[93henfan]

Not in Oregon and New Jersey apparently.

I made a gas-jockey angry in NJ last year. Stopped and got out of my car. He made me get back in, took my credit card, swiped it, handed it back to me, started the pump, and walked off.

When the pump clicked off, I got out of my car, hung the nozzle up, put cap on, closed fuel door, got in and drove off.

The guy comes running toward me, "hey, wait!!!"

WTF? You ran my card. I don't need to stick around.

I gave him the finger and kept on driving. Fuck New Jersey.

Yeah. It’s annoying. But the gas is still cheaper somehow.


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Not anymore. They changed their gas tax. Delaware is cheaper now. PA is the highest. Maryland is all over the place. DC is lawl.

[houndawg]

Should the Republican farmer who was employing him be charged too?

First off, I was using an well worn statement as a joke.

Secondly, if the farmer can show they made a good faith effort to verify employment status, then no, I do not believe they should be held accountable.

While there isn't a big problem with illegal immigrants on Montana farms due to the crops (wheat), I do see it here in Washington were fruit needs to be picked.

Personally, I have never had a problem with anyone who wants to work. I have always viewed our immigration issues as a Congress problem. It's too much all or nothing on both sides. Probably a lot of common ground that could be implemented that would allow workers to come here, but yet get them fully "registered".

45 years ago when I was picking fruit and putting up hay in central Washington there wasn't any problem and there were Mexicans everywhere.

[BDKJMU]

Mechanization for the farm fields is coming..

A glimpse of the fruit-ure: Experts take first steps to create ROBOT strawberry pickers who could end the need for humans toiling in fields
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rkers.html

[CAA Flagship]

Yeah. It’s annoying. But the gas is still cheaper somehow.


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Not anymore. They changed their gas tax. Delaware is cheaper now. PA is the highest. Maryland is all over the place. DC is lawl.

I see $2.73 in Milford and $2.75 at the station I used in TR. Meh.

[93henfan]

Not anymore. They changed their gas tax. Delaware is cheaper now. PA is the highest. Maryland is all over the place. DC is lawl.

I see $2.73 in Milford and $2.75 at the station I used in TR. Meh.

$2.62 at Sams Club in Dover

[css75]

Having just returned from the East, gas is cheaper there than in Utah. 3.19 a gallon here, even higher in Nevada and higher still in Cali.


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