It's not guns. It's Blacks and poor people.

[AZGrizFan]

We have also chosen as a society that the innocent lives lost every year are worth the protection of big pharma/sliding mental health services/poor parenting/godless society etc., etc., etc....because the 2nd amendment is a very, very small cog in this wheel....but it’s the front and center easy target to let all the other REAL reasons slide by unaffected.

I can see you like this psycheutropic drug angle and it might have validity. How many lives were saved because a chemically unbalanced brain was balanced through meds? Not dismissing the roll of drugs but isn’t there some upside too?

Just as there is an upside with lives saved through concealed carry...you sure you want to play this game?

[AZGrizFan]

Lol...not sure why I said that...I’ve met him many times...guess I figured all you Harvaaad grads are the same...

True
I have a distaste for our cultural fondness of litigation (period)
add to that our tendency towards cumbersome legalese as a replacement for common sense
and you have America Today - a slowly declining circle jerk of lawyer-on-lawyer action sinking into the abyss

as our final gesture we elect a president that is the very definition of "frivolous legal action"
appearing in over 3,500 suits...

Lawyers... What's to like..?

Yes, and the hidden message in that post is the exact reason why big pharma, healthcare, etc., etc. don’t want to ever admit any liability whatsoever and are willing to sacrifice the 2nd amendment to keep their asses covered.

[Chizzang]

True
I have a distaste for our cultural fondness of litigation (period)
add to that our tendency towards cumbersome legalese as a replacement for common sense
and you have America Today - a slowly declining circle jerk of lawyer-on-lawyer action sinking into the abyss

as our final gesture we elect a president that is the very definition of "frivolous legal action"
appearing in over 3,500 suits...

Lawyers... What's to like..?

Yes, and the hidden message in that post is the exact reason why big pharma, healthcare, etc., etc. don’t want to ever admit any liability whatsoever and are willing to sacrifice the 2nd amendment to keep their asses covered.

I can't really disagree AZ...



Slow clap

[Ibanez]

Chizzang is any number of things on here— often, many incompatible things at once— but he ain’t no lawyer. He hates lawyers, by his own admission. He’s a technocratic metrosexual sybarite. You’re welcome.

Lol...not sure why I said that...I’ve met him many times...guess I figured all you Harvaaad grads are the same...

He isn't a Harvard grad either.



Wasn't he expelled?

[Ibanez]

I can see you like this psycheutropic drug angle and it might have validity. How many lives were saved because a chemically unbalanced brain was balanced through meds? Not dismissing the roll of drugs but isn’t there some upside too?

Just as there is an upside with lives saved through concealed carry...you sure you want to play this game?

What are the stats on lives saved by concealed carry? That argument sounds a bit weak. There are millions of people on drugs to balance them out. Do we have good data that shows/infers how many people were saved when someone with a CC acted during a shooting?

[kalm]

Lol...not sure why I said that...I’ve met him many times...guess I figured all you Harvaaad grads are the same...

True
I have a distaste for our cultural fondness of litigation (period)
add to that our tendency towards cumbersome legalese as a replacement for common sense
and you have America Today - a slowly declining circle jerk of lawyer-on-lawyer action sinking into the abyss

as our final gesture we elect a president that is the very definition of "frivolous legal action"
appearing in over 3,500 suits...

Lawyers... What's to like..?

Only when you need a good one.

[Ibanez]

True
I have a distaste for our cultural fondness of litigation (period)
add to that our tendency towards cumbersome legalese as a replacement for common sense
and you have America Today - a slowly declining circle jerk of lawyer-on-lawyer action sinking into the abyss

as our final gesture we elect a president that is the very definition of "frivolous legal action"
appearing in over 3,500 suits...

Lawyers... What's to like..?

Yes, and the hidden message in that post is the exact reason why big pharma, healthcare, etc., etc. don’t want to ever admit any liability whatsoever and are willing to sacrifice the 2nd amendment to keep their asses covered.

LIke you said, the 2nd Amendment is the scapegoat.

I had to stop talking about gun control last week with one family member b/c she said, AND I QUOTE, " He had an AR-15. AR stands for 'Assault Rifle." After I told her that AR isn't for "assault rifle" her argument quickly became a "what about the children?"

[AZGrizFan]

Just as there is an upside with lives saved through concealed carry...you sure you want to play this game?

What are the stats on lives saved by concealed carry? That argument sounds a bit weak. There are millions of people on drugs to balance them out. Do we have good data that shows/infers how many people were saved when someone with a CC acted during a shooting?

so you want data on crimes that were NOT committed because it was known there was someone there with a weapon who might shoot back?

[AZGrizFan]

Just as there is an upside with lives saved through concealed carry...you sure you want to play this game?

What are the stats on lives saved by concealed carry? That argument sounds a bit weak. There are millions of people on drugs to balance them out. Do we have good data that shows/infers how many people were saved when someone with a CC acted during a shooting?

You say that like it's a good thing. Howsabout we just admit that those "millions of people" balance out the couple hundred that are shot each year by someone ALSO on psychotropic drugs who didn't get "fixed"....

[GannonFan]

What are the stats on lives saved by concealed carry? That argument sounds a bit weak. There are millions of people on drugs to balance them out. Do we have good data that shows/infers how many people were saved when someone with a CC acted during a shooting?

so you want data on crimes that were NOT committed because it was known there was someone there with a weapon who might shoot back?

Pre-cog. Sounds easy.

[Ibanez]

What are the stats on lives saved by concealed carry? That argument sounds a bit weak. There are millions of people on drugs to balance them out. Do we have good data that shows/infers how many people were saved when someone with a CC acted during a shooting?

so you want data on crimes that were NOT committed because it was known there was someone there with a weapon who might shoot back?

Isn't that the premise of your post?

[Chizzang]

True
I have a distaste for our cultural fondness of litigation (period)
add to that our tendency towards cumbersome legalese as a replacement for common sense
and you have America Today - a slowly declining circle jerk of lawyer-on-lawyer action sinking into the abyss

as our final gesture we elect a president that is the very definition of "frivolous legal action"
appearing in over 3,500 suits...

Lawyers... What's to like..?

Only when you need a good one.

You know how rare the occasion is when a normal human needs "a good lawyer"
It's extremely rare (unless you're watching television)
Usually a regular old sh!t lawyers is fine....

most normal people will go their entire life not needing "a good lawyer"
You know what "a good lawyer" is code for..?
it's code for "I fucked up bad" and now I need to game the system

See: OJ Simpson

Good lawyers are here so rich people can commit crimes and walk away
so corporations can commit fraud and walk away

For a country brimming with Lawyers
America is suspiciously devoid of good lawyers for average Americans

[kalm]

Only when you need a good one.

You know how rare the occasion is when a normal human needs "a good lawyer"
It's extremely rare (unless you're watching television)
Usually a regular old sh!t lawyers is fine....

most normal people will go their entire life not needing "a good lawyer"
You know what "a good lawyer" is code for..?
it's code for "I fucked up bad" and now I need to game the system

See: OJ Simpson

Good lawyers are here so rich people can commit crimes and walk away
so corporations can commit fraud and walk away

For a country brimming with Lawyers
America is suspiciously devoid of good lawyers for average Americans

True. They're really expensive.

[Gil Dobie]

You know how rare the occasion is when a normal human needs "a good lawyer"
It's extremely rare (unless you're watching television)
Usually a regular old sh!t lawyers is fine....

most normal people will go their entire life not needing "a good lawyer"
You know what "a good lawyer" is code for..?
it's code for "I **** up bad" and now I need to game the system

See: OJ Simpson

Good lawyers are here so rich people can commit crimes and walk away
so corporations can commit fraud and walk away

For a country brimming with Lawyers
America is suspiciously devoid of good lawyers for average Americans

True. They're really expensive.

The public defender for the 2nd degree murder trial I was a juror for, did a great job. Got his client off, even though he admitted to burning the body in the car. The state used a witness that appeared to be the actual shooter, and the PD put the blame on him during the trial.

[AZGrizFan]

so you want data on crimes that were NOT committed because it was known there was someone there with a weapon who might shoot back?

Isn't that the premise of your post?

Nobody yet tracks crimes that don’t happen. You’ll just have to take my word that 100,000,000 guns out there have stopped a few bad guys from committing bad things.

[Ibanez]

Isn't that the premise of your post?

Nobody yet tracks crimes that don’t happen. You’ll just have to take my word that 100,000,000 guns out there have stopped a few bad guys from committing bad things.

Take your word for it? That's a liberal argument. I thought you Republicans argued the facts.

[andy7171]

So you're saying Vermont has no street cred?

Zero!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 302763002/

[JohnStOnge]

Hey, here's a good "Guns and Jurisdictions" anecdote for you gun guys:

The United States has the highest gun homicide rate among developed nations. But it does not have the highest TOTAL homicide rate. It's 4th. Lithuania has the highest TOTAL homicide rate.

The United States' "guns per 100 people" rate, at 88.8, is 127 times Lithuania's 0.7. The United States' gun homicide rate, at 3.2 per 100,000 people, is about 18 times Lithuania's gun homicide rate of 0.18 per 100,000 people.

But Lithuania's TOTAL homicide rate is 7.2 per 100,000 people while the United States' total homicide rate is 4.7 per 100,000 people. The rate of people killing other people in Lithuania is substantially higher than it is in the United States even though there is less than ONE gun in civilian hands in Lithuania for every 100 people. Obviously, Lithuanians know how to kill people without guns.

The sources are the Wall Street Journal table at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... hip/table/ and the list of countries with "Developed economies" in the UN document at http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/p ... cation.pdf.

[JohnStOnge]

but it's all just so much bullsh!t without unification of data and organized controlled studies

I believe that the problem is that we don't have an unbiased scientific community. Not when it comes to things like social science and environmental science anyway. I say "I believe" because that's what it is. I'm an old guy that understands data analysis. I've watched what's gone on for decades. When it comes to environmental science I've been immersed in that world for going on 35 years. I've been among them. I've seen how people think.

I know that for ME it's important that I am able to look at peer reviewed studies and make my own independent judgments about them. I do not consider the peer review process to be a real quality control process whereby the only criteria have to do with the quality of the work, adherence to the rules of inference, etc. I honestly do believe, from watching things for many years, that there are philosophical biases and "herd" phenomena.

But I will admit that it's in the realm of "I think." I can't prove it.

But I still think it would be good if people had some basic understanding of certain things so that they could be informed consumers. Like understanding that observational study always has an asterisks. Or being able to think about stuff like "hey, wait a second, why are they looking at just gun homicides instead of looking at all homicides if the idea is that reducing gun prevalence would reduce the incidence of people killing each other?"

[AZGrizFan]

Nobody yet tracks crimes that don’t happen. You’ll just have to take my word that 100,000,000 guns out there have stopped a few bad guys from committing bad things.

Take your word for it? That's a liberal argument. I thought you Republicans argued the facts.

Then don’t take my word for it. I couldnt’ give two shits.

[CID1990]

John


This thread might be the most useless one you have ever started.... and that’s really saying something considering your recent body of work

Nobody cares about the leading cause of death among black males between the ages of 15 and 32..... nobody. And that’s the murder rate you’re talking about in America

17 white kids in a high school (maybe a future cure for cancer in there somewhere): TRAGEDY

17 inner city Chicago yutes in a weekend: MEH

The only reason we hear about the overall gun murder rate in America is because it helps to utter it in the same sentence with names like Sandy Hook or Columbine

But in reality, the gun murder rate and school shootings have as much in common as the rate at which 5 years olds eat boogers and the rate at which a Mexican agricultural worker can pick tomatoes vs a Guatemalan one

[Ibanez]

Take your word for it? That's a liberal argument. I thought you Republicans argued the facts.

Then don’t take my word for it. I couldnt’ give two shits.

But you asked me to take your word for it. Is your word not good?

[Pwns]

I'm frankly surprised that I still haven't seen an editorial on Slate or Salon talking about how it takes a bunch of white kids getting shot in a school for us to get talking about guns and not the much larger number of "young men of color" in urban areas.

Apparently when Black Lives Matter was the big news a pact was made to never talk about it and they're really sticking to it.

[Gil Dobie]

I'm frankly surprised that I still haven't seen an editorial on Slate or Salon talking about how it takes a bunch of white kids getting shot in a school for us to get talking about guns and not the much larger number of "young men of color" in urban areas.

Apparently when Black Lives Matter was the big new a pact was made to never talk about it and they're really sticking to it.

The mantra I keep hearing from white BLM coat-tail riders, is that it's a police problem, not a gun problem.

[AZGrizFan]

Then don’t take my word for it. I couldnt’ give two shits.

But you asked me to take your word for it. Is your word not good?

This is America. Beauty is you have the FREEDOM to decide.

I already know the answer.