Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:Guys, I said all along during the primaries and afterward that I thought the polls showed that the Sanders was the stronger candidate for the General Election. I wondered why the Democrats couldn't see that.

But the primaries were not "rigged." Within the population of people voting in Democrat primaries Hillary was favored before they started. Hillary was favored while they were going on. Hillary was favored afterwards.

Perhaps they should have favored Sanders if they wanted to maximize their probability of winning the general election. But they didn't.
When you're the only Democrat in the Democratic Primary these things can happen. :coffee:
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by Ibanez »

JohnStOnge wrote:Guys, I said all along during the primaries and afterward that I thought the polls showed that the Sanders was the stronger candidate for the General Election. I wondered why the Democrats couldn't see that.

But the primaries were not "rigged." Within the population of people voting in Democrat primaries Hillary was favored before they started. Hillary was favored while they were going on. Hillary was favored afterwards.

Perhaps they should have favored Sanders if they wanted to maximize their probability of winning the general election. But they didn't.
:roll: Forest for the trees, John. The DNC was acting in the best interest of Clinton, not Sanders. It wasn't giving Sanders a fair shake. It was unethically backing Clinton before the Democratic voters made up their minds. It doesn't matter if Clinton was the choice all along - the DNC was acting unethically.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

Ibanez wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Guys, I said all along during the primaries and afterward that I thought the polls showed that the Sanders was the stronger candidate for the General Election. I wondered why the Democrats couldn't see that.

But the primaries were not "rigged." Within the population of people voting in Democrat primaries Hillary was favored before they started. Hillary was favored while they were going on. Hillary was favored afterwards.

Perhaps they should have favored Sanders if they wanted to maximize their probability of winning the general election. But they didn't.
:roll: Forest for the trees, John. The DNC was acting in the best interest of Clinton, not Sanders. It wasn't giving Sanders a fair shake. It was unethically backing Clinton before the Democratic voters made up their minds. It doesn't matter if Clinton was the choice all along - the DNC was acting unethically.
As I said: The DNC favored Hillary Clinton. But that's different than saying the primaries were "rigged." Whey you say something is "rigged" that means there is no chance that it'll turn out in another way. It means that, in this case, even if most people who were going to vote in Dem primaries wanted Sanders, something would happen to make sure Clinton won. That didn't happen.

Unethical? I don't know. Remember: Sanders is not a Democrat. I don't know if it's unethical to resist having someone who is not a Democrat winning the Democrat nomination.

To me it's amazing that there aren't systems in place to make sure that doesn't even happen. It seems to me like if you are going to run for the nomination of a political Party you ought to have to be a member of that Party.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by Ibanez »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Ibanez wrote: :roll: Forest for the trees, John. The DNC was acting in the best interest of Clinton, not Sanders. It wasn't giving Sanders a fair shake. It was unethically backing Clinton before the Democratic voters made up their minds. It doesn't matter if Clinton was the choice all along - the DNC was acting unethically.
As I said: The DNC favored Hillary Clinton. But that's different than saying the primaries were "rigged." Whey you say something is "rigged" that means there is no chance that it'll turn out in another way. It means that, in this case, even if most people who were going to vote in Dem primaries wanted Sanders, something would happen to make sure Clinton won. That didn't happen.

Unethical? I don't know. Remember: Sanders is not a Democrat. I don't know if it's unethical to resist having someone who is not a Democrat winning the Democrat nomination.

To me it's amazing that there aren't systems in place to make sure that doesn't even happen. It seems to me like if you are going to run for the nomination of a political Party you ought to have to be a member of that Party.
You don't understand ethics.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

Heard confirmation with respect to the fact that Donna Brazille doesn't think the nomination was rigged today. I was driving to work early this morning listening to America in the Morning with Jim Bohannon. He interviewed Ms. Brazille. He asked her directly if the primaries were rigged.

She answered "No, Jim, the primaries were not rigged." She did say the situation was "unethical."

Later I was on the road to do some field work and was listening to Talk Louisiana on the Baton Rouge NPR Station. The host didn't ask her just time. He just made a statement about the primaries being rigged.

She responded, "It was unethical, but not rigged." She went on to explain that it made the DNC's job harder and also that it would not be possible for the DNC to rig primaries.

The Democrat primaries were not rigged. The claim that they were rigged is actually a ridiculous assertion because you could see from the polling that, if anything. Sanders OVER performed a little bit with respect to what polls said about his support level among people who planned to vote in Democrat primaries.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

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JohnStOnge wrote:Heard confirmation with respect to the fact that Donna Brazille doesn't think the nomination was rigged today. I was driving to work early this morning listening to America in the Morning with Jim Bohannon. He interviewed Ms. Brazille. He asked her directly if the primaries were rigged.

She answered "No, Jim, the primaries were not rigged." She did say the situation was "unethical."

Later I was on the road to do some field work and was listening to Talk Louisiana on the Baton Rouge NPR Station. The host didn't ask her just time. He just made a statement about the primaries being rigged.

She responded, "It was unethical, but not rigged." She went on to explain that it made the DNC's job harder and also that it would not be possible for the DNC to rig primaries.

The Democrat primaries were not rigged. The claim that they were rigged is actually a ridiculous assertion because you could see from the polling that, if anything. Sanders OVER performed a little bit with respect to what polls said about his support level among people who planned to vote in Democrat primaries.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:Heard confirmation with respect to the fact that Donna Brazille doesn't think the nomination was rigged today. I was driving to work early this morning listening to America in the Morning with Jim Bohannon. He interviewed Ms. Brazille. He asked her directly if the primaries were rigged.

She answered "No, Jim, the primaries were not rigged." She did say the situation was "unethical."

Later I was on the road to do some field work and was listening to Talk Louisiana on the Baton Rouge NPR Station. The host didn't ask her just time. He just made a statement about the primaries being rigged.

She responded, "It was unethical, but not rigged." She went on to explain that it made the DNC's job harder and also that it would not be possible for the DNC to rig primaries.

The Democrat primaries were not rigged. The claim that they were rigged is actually a ridiculous assertion because you could see from the polling that, if anything. Sanders OVER performed a little bit with respect to what polls said about his support level among people who planned to vote in Democrat primaries.
Yeah...it wasn't rigged...it was just unethical! :rofl:

And Sanders over-performing the polls proves it!

:rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by Jjoey52 »

Guess she should have edited her book better.


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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

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Donna Brazile - having leaked debate questions to Hillary - suddenly has the moral authority to make a ruling on what is ethical and what is not


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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:Donna Brazile - having leaked debate questions to Hillary - suddenly has the moral authority to make a ruling on what is ethical and what is not
Regardless: The main point here is that there was this big thing about how she said the nomination was rigged and she didn't say that.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

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CID1990 wrote:Donna Brazile - having leaked debate questions to Hillary - suddenly has the moral authority to make a ruling on what is ethical and what is not


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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:Donna Brazile - having leaked debate questions to Hillary - suddenly has the moral authority to make a ruling on what is ethical and what is not
Regardless: The main point here is that there was this big thing about how she said the nomination was rigged and she didn't say that.
Your semantic distinction is immaterial to the actual issue.

Rigged, fixed, scales tipped in favor of, whatever someone wants to call it - it is all the old "what the definition of IS, is", redux.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Regardless: The main point here is that there was this big thing about how she said the nomination was rigged and she didn't say that.
Your semantic distinction is immaterial to the actual issue.

Rigged, fixed, scales tipped in favor of, whatever someone wants to call it - it is all the old "what the definition of IS, is", redux.
No. The question is whether or not she said the primaries were rigged. And she didn't. That's the objective truth. She didn't say that.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

Ibanez wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
As I said: The DNC favored Hillary Clinton. But that's different than saying the primaries were "rigged." Whey you say something is "rigged" that means there is no chance that it'll turn out in another way. It means that, in this case, even if most people who were going to vote in Dem primaries wanted Sanders, something would happen to make sure Clinton won. That didn't happen.

Unethical? I don't know. Remember: Sanders is not a Democrat. I don't know if it's unethical to resist having someone who is not a Democrat winning the Democrat nomination.

To me it's amazing that there aren't systems in place to make sure that doesn't even happen. It seems to me like if you are going to run for the nomination of a political Party you ought to have to be a member of that Party.
You don't understand ethics.
Why should a Party allow someone who is not a member of it run for its nomination? That makes absolutely no sense. Do you not think that someone who runs for the Democratic Party nomination for President should be a Democrat? Or you can substitute "Republican." Why on EARTH do you think someone who is NOT a member of a political Party should be allowed to acquire the nomination of that Party?
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Your semantic distinction is immaterial to the actual issue.

Rigged, fixed, scales tipped in favor of, whatever someone wants to call it - it is all the old "what the definition of IS, is", redux.
No. The question is whether or not she said the primaries were rigged. And she didn't. That's the objective truth. She didn't say that.
I see.

So you're arguing over the precise words she used.

In other words, you've wasted gigbytes of bandwidth making a semantic argument that is completely immaterial to what is being discussed.

Which, come to think of it, is pretty much you doing you - so please continue

:clap:
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by Baldy »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Ibanez wrote: You don't understand ethics.
Why should a Party allow someone who is not a member of it run for its nomination? That makes absolutely no sense. Do you not think that someone who runs for the Democratic Party nomination for President should be a Democrat? Or you can substitute "Republican." Why on EARTH do you think someone who is NOT a member of a political Party should be allowed to acquire the nomination of that Party?
You need to read line 4.

http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/533/1503142 ... 422533.pdf
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Ibanez wrote: You don't understand ethics.
Why should a Party allow someone who is not a member of it run for its nomination? That makes absolutely no sense. Do you not think that someone who runs for the Democratic Party nomination for President should be a Democrat? Or you can substitute "Republican." Why on EARTH do you think someone who is NOT a member of a political Party should be allowed to acquire the nomination of that Party?
pay attention now, John, because I won't always be here to help you through life. The answer is: for window dressing, to put a veneer of legitimacy on the Democratic Coronation.( Doesn't it strike you as odd that it was a one person field when there was no incumbent prez running?) That's why they had to bring in an Independent, John. :coffee:

The cream of the jest is that still she would be President today if her staff had just listened to Bernie's staff when they tried to tell why Bernie won the Michigan primary in a huge upset while her staff was busy counting the union vote as in the bag. Of all the gaffes that was the one that struck a vital spot. :nod:
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

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JohnStOnge wrote:
Ibanez wrote: You don't understand ethics.
Why should a Party allow someone who is not a member of it run for its nomination? That makes absolutely no sense. Do you not think that someone who runs for the Democratic Party nomination for President should be a Democrat? Or you can substitute "Republican." Why on EARTH do you think someone who is NOT a member of a political Party should be allowed to acquire the nomination of that Party?
You allowed Trump to run. Why couldn't Bernie?
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
No. The question is whether or not she said the primaries were rigged. And she didn't. That's the objective truth. She didn't say that.
I see.

So you're arguing over the precise words she used.

In other words, you've wasted gigbytes of bandwidth making a semantic argument that is completely immaterial to what is being discussed.

Which, come to think of it, is pretty much you doing you - so please continue

:clap:
CID, she explicitly said the primaries were not rigged. If you want to translate her explicitly saying the primaries were NOT rigged into her saying they were based on your contention that it's just semantics go ahead. But it's not just semantics. She just flat didn't say that.

Instead, what we have here is people putting words in her mouth.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
I see.

So you're arguing over the precise words she used.

In other words, you've wasted gigbytes of bandwidth making a semantic argument that is completely immaterial to what is being discussed.

Which, come to think of it, is pretty much you doing you - so please continue

:clap:
CID, she explicitly said the primaries were not rigged. If you want to translate her explicitly saying the primaries were NOT rigged into her saying they were based on your contention that it's just semantics go ahead. But it's not just semantics. She just flat didn't say that.

Instead, what we have here is people putting words in her mouth.
You are making a semantic argument.

Specifically, the logical side of the etymological fallacy.

I actually picture you twitching and jerking
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
I see.

So you're arguing over the precise words she used.

In other words, you've wasted gigbytes of bandwidth making a semantic argument that is completely immaterial to what is being discussed.

Which, come to think of it, is pretty much you doing you - so please continue

:clap:
CID, she explicitly said the primaries were not rigged. If you want to translate her explicitly saying the primaries were NOT rigged into her saying they were based on your contention that it's just semantics go ahead. But it's not just semantics. She just flat didn't say that.

Instead, what we have here is people putting words in her mouth.
Yeah...um k...sure...
Here's the key passage from Brazile's piece in Politico last week, which was excerpted from her book that is being released today:

"I had tried to search out any other evidence of internal corruption that would show that the DNC was rigging the system to throw the primary to Hillary, but I could not find any in party affairs or among the staff. I had gone department by department, investigating individual conduct for evidence of skewed decisions, and I was happy to see that I had found none. Then I found this agreement."

"The funding arrangement with HFA and the victory fund agreement was not illegal, but it sure looked unethical. If the fight had been fair, one campaign would not have control of the party before the voters had decided which one they wanted to lead. This was not a criminal act, but as I saw it, it compromised the party's integrity."

In the first paragraph of that excerpt, Brazile says she can't find any evidence that the "DNC was rigging the system" until she unearths the fundraising agreement. In the second paragraph, she calls the fundraising deal "unethical" and adds: "It compromised the party's integrity." She adds that, as a result, the primary wasn't a fair fight.

Which is the exact opposite -- to the word! -- of what Brazile told O'Donnell Tuesday morning.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/ ... index.html
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
CID, she explicitly said the primaries were not rigged. If you want to translate her explicitly saying the primaries were NOT rigged into her saying they were based on your contention that it's just semantics go ahead. But it's not just semantics. She just flat didn't say that.

Instead, what we have here is people putting words in her mouth.
You are making a semantic argument.

Specifically, the logical side of the etymological fallacy.

I actually picture you twitching and jerking
No. If you want to say someone is making a semantic argument you'd be arguing with her. She is the one explicitly saying the primaries were not rigged. I am simply accurately reporting what she said.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
You are making a semantic argument.

Specifically, the logical side of the etymological fallacy.

I actually picture you twitching and jerking
No. If you want to say someone is making a semantic argument you'd be arguing with her. She is the one explicitly saying the primaries were not rigged. I am simply accurately reporting what she said.
Seriously....just stop. :lol:
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

kalm wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
CID, she explicitly said the primaries were not rigged. If you want to translate her explicitly saying the primaries were NOT rigged into her saying they were based on your contention that it's just semantics go ahead. But it's not just semantics. She just flat didn't say that.

Instead, what we have here is people putting words in her mouth.
Yeah...um k...sure...
Here's the key passage from Brazile's piece in Politico last week, which was excerpted from her book that is being released today:

"I had tried to search out any other evidence of internal corruption that would show that the DNC was rigging the system to throw the primary to Hillary, but I could not find any in party affairs or among the staff. I had gone department by department, investigating individual conduct for evidence of skewed decisions, and I was happy to see that I had found none. Then I found this agreement."

"The funding arrangement with HFA and the victory fund agreement was not illegal, but it sure looked unethical. If the fight had been fair, one campaign would not have control of the party before the voters had decided which one they wanted to lead. This was not a criminal act, but as I saw it, it compromised the party's integrity."

In the first paragraph of that excerpt, Brazile says she can't find any evidence that the "DNC was rigging the system" until she unearths the fundraising agreement. In the second paragraph, she calls the fundraising deal "unethical" and adds: "It compromised the party's integrity." She adds that, as a result, the primary wasn't a fair fight.

Which is the exact opposite -- to the word! -- of what Brazile told O'Donnell Tuesday morning.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/ ... index.html
All of that is a description of an exercise of putting words in her mouth. Nowhere in there does it show that she said the primaries were rigged.
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Re: Donna Brazille - How HRC Rigged the Nomination

Post by JohnStOnge »

kalm wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
No. If you want to say someone is making a semantic argument you'd be arguing with her. She is the one explicitly saying the primaries were not rigged. I am simply accurately reporting what she said.
Seriously....just stop. :lol:
Ok Kalm. I have cited quotes where she said that the primaries were not rigged. Now you find me a quote where she said "the primaries were rigged."
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