Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
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Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Donald Trump printed out made-up £300bn Nato invoice and handed it to Angela Merkel
President estimated Germany’s underspend on alliance over the past 12 years, then added interest
Angela Merkel will reportedly ignore Donald Trump’s attempts to extricate £300bn from Germany for what he deems to be owed contributions to Nato.
The US President is said to have had an “invoice” printed out outlining the sum estimated by his aides as covering Germany’s unpaid contributions for defence.
Said to be presented during private talks in Washington, the move has been met with criticism from German and Nato officials.
While the figure presented to the Germans was not revealed by either side, Nato countries pledged in 2014 to spend two per cent of their GDP on defence, something only a handful of nations – including the UK, Greece, Poland and Estonia – currently do.
But the bill has been backdated even further to 2002, the year Mrs Merkel’s predecessor, Gerhard Schröder, pledged to spend more on defence.
Mr Trump reportedly instructed aides to calculate how much German spending fell below two per cent over the past 12 years, then added interest.
Estimates suggest the total came to £300bn, with official figures citing the shortfall to be around £250bn plus £50bn in interest added on.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 50636.html
President estimated Germany’s underspend on alliance over the past 12 years, then added interest
Angela Merkel will reportedly ignore Donald Trump’s attempts to extricate £300bn from Germany for what he deems to be owed contributions to Nato.
The US President is said to have had an “invoice” printed out outlining the sum estimated by his aides as covering Germany’s unpaid contributions for defence.
Said to be presented during private talks in Washington, the move has been met with criticism from German and Nato officials.
While the figure presented to the Germans was not revealed by either side, Nato countries pledged in 2014 to spend two per cent of their GDP on defence, something only a handful of nations – including the UK, Greece, Poland and Estonia – currently do.
But the bill has been backdated even further to 2002, the year Mrs Merkel’s predecessor, Gerhard Schröder, pledged to spend more on defence.
Mr Trump reportedly instructed aides to calculate how much German spending fell below two per cent over the past 12 years, then added interest.
Estimates suggest the total came to £300bn, with official figures citing the shortfall to be around £250bn plus £50bn in interest added on.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 50636.html
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
What an idiot.
NATO countries are under commitment to spend 2% of GDP on defense by 2024.
No NATO country is currently obligated to spend that now. And, certainly not to the US.
NATO countries are under commitment to spend 2% of GDP on defense by 2024.
No NATO country is currently obligated to spend that now. And, certainly not to the US.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
But haven't they underspent in general compared to us?Skjellyfetti wrote:What an idiot.
NATO countries are under commitment to spend 2% of GDP on defense by 2024.
No NATO country is currently obligated to spend that now. And, certainly not to the US.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they owe us $300 billion.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
****in Canucks.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Straw man
The "bill" was obviously a metaphor. Germany has not pulled their load in NATO, and they have in fact been spending below the 2% of GDP since Schroeder made the initial commitment back around 2002. The 2012-ish agreement was an "Our bad, we really promise to contribute now" deal.
Trump has correctly identified a major problem with NATO. Giving Merkel a "bill" was a way for putting Germany on notice but only a moron would think it was an actual payment we are expecting.
Merkel is trying to use the pacifist route as an excuse for Germany not pulling its weight. I see what Trump did as a way to let them know that we expect them to uphold their obligations. The next step will be to renegotiate the charter, and quite frankly I hope we do that. I'm in favor of a full withdrawal so I could personally care less about the optics of what Trump did.
NATO needs us. We don't need NATO. Period.
The "bill" was obviously a metaphor. Germany has not pulled their load in NATO, and they have in fact been spending below the 2% of GDP since Schroeder made the initial commitment back around 2002. The 2012-ish agreement was an "Our bad, we really promise to contribute now" deal.
Trump has correctly identified a major problem with NATO. Giving Merkel a "bill" was a way for putting Germany on notice but only a moron would think it was an actual payment we are expecting.
Merkel is trying to use the pacifist route as an excuse for Germany not pulling its weight. I see what Trump did as a way to let them know that we expect them to uphold their obligations. The next step will be to renegotiate the charter, and quite frankly I hope we do that. I'm in favor of a full withdrawal so I could personally care less about the optics of what Trump did.
NATO needs us. We don't need NATO. Period.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
That's where I was going. You don't start negotiating with the number you hope it will end up at.CID1990 wrote:Straw man
The "bill" was obviously a metaphor. Germany has not pulled their load in NATO, and they have in fact been spending below the 2% of GDP since Schroeder made the initial commitment back around 2002. The 2012-ish agreement was an "Our bad, we really promise to contribute now" deal.
Trump has correctly identified a major problem with NATO. Giving Merkel a "bill" was a way for putting Germany on notice but only a moron would think it was an actual payment we are expecting.
Merkel is trying to use the pacifist route as an excuse for Germany not pulling its weight. I see what Trump did as a way to let them know that we expect them to uphold their obligations. The next step will be to renegotiate the charter, and quite frankly I hope we do that. I'm in favor of a full withdrawal so I could personally care less about the optics of what Trump did.
NATO needs us. We don't need NATO. Period.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
This is certainly one area where president Trump is spot on...
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
If slowly isn't possible I can think of a couple other adverbsChizzang wrote:This is certainly one area where president Trump is spot on...
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
Abruptly
Quickly
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
CID1990 wrote:Straw man
The "bill" was obviously a metaphor. Germany has not pulled their load in NATO, and they have in fact been spending below the 2% of GDP since Schroeder made the initial commitment back around 2002. The 2012-ish agreement was an "Our bad, we really promise to contribute now" deal.
Trump has correctly identified a major problem with NATO. Giving Merkel a "bill" was a way for putting Germany on notice but only a moron would think it was an actual payment we are expecting.
Merkel is trying to use the pacifist route as an excuse for Germany not pulling its weight. I see what Trump did as a way to let them know that we expect them to uphold their obligations. The next step will be to renegotiate the charter, and quite frankly I hope we do that. I'm in favor of a full withdrawal so I could personally care less about the optics of what Trump did.
NATO needs us. We don't need NATO. Period.
This, and while he is at it, send the UN a bill too.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Did NATO really get that much from Greece?
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
AS PERCENTAGE OF GDP.SeattleGriz wrote: Did NATO really get that much from Greece?
Their GDP is shit.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
I don't think we are spending on NATO per se. I think we are spending what we spend on the military in our own self interest. We are exerting influence. And we get to have bases all over the place in order to do that.Chizzang wrote:This is certainly one area where president Trump is spot on...
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
I think that, if all the other countries in NATO said, "Fine, United States. We're dissolving NATO. Get all your bases, materials, and troops out of our countries" we would be horrified. Of course they wouldn't do that because they have an interest in maintaining the situation as well.
But we're not spending what we spend on our military because NATO makes us. We're doing that because we want to. We can argue about whether we should want to spend as much as we do on the military as we do. But we're not doing it because of NATO. In fact without NATO we might be spending more.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
ImmediatelyCID1990 wrote:If slowly isn't possible I can think of a couple other adverbsChizzang wrote:This is certainly one area where president Trump is spot on...
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
Abruptly
Quickly
Post Haste
Pronto
ASAP
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Toot SweetAZGrizFan wrote:ImmediatelyCID1990 wrote:
If slowly isn't possible I can think of a couple other adverbs
Abruptly
Quickly
Post Haste
Pronto
ASAP
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
You never fail to miss the point JSOJohnStOnge wrote:I don't think we are spending on NATO per se. I think we are spending what we spend on the military in our own self interest. We are exerting influence. And we get to have bases all over the place in order to do that.Chizzang wrote:This is certainly one area where president Trump is spot on...
We have only ourselves to blame for what we spend on NATO
and shaming then is fine but we still need to slowly back away
I think that, if all the other countries in NATO said, "Fine, United States. We're dissolving NATO. Get all your bases, materials, and troops out of our countries" we would be horrified. Of course they wouldn't do that because they have an interest in maintaining the situation as well.
But we're not spending what we spend on our military because NATO makes us. We're doing that because we want to. We can argue about whether we should want to spend as much as we do on the military as we do. But we're not doing it because of NATO. In fact without NATO we might be spending more.
It isn't the military expenditures that make NATO bad for America
NATO is the very definition of an entangling alliance - when the belief that the aim of the Soviet Union was to dominate the globe via state communism (and did nothing to dispel that belief) then NATO made sense to a degree
It no longer does, and now we are bound by treaty to enter a war between Russia and any number of European countries that do not take their own defense seriously. Or Turkey. Take your pick. Germany has the ability to individually defend the continent and they choose not to. Germany could surpass Russia in military capabilities within 5-10 years if they wanted to. That right there is why we should pull out
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Lazy Mediterranean trash.CAA Flagship wrote:AS PERCENTAGE OF GDP.SeattleGriz wrote: Did NATO really get that much from Greece?
Their GDP is shit.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
kalm wrote:That's where I was going. You don't start negotiating with the number you hope it will end up at.CID1990 wrote:Straw man
The "bill" was obviously a metaphor. Germany has not pulled their load in NATO, and they have in fact been spending below the 2% of GDP since Schroeder made the initial commitment back around 2002. The 2012-ish agreement was an "Our bad, we really promise to contribute now" deal.
Trump has correctly identified a major problem with NATO. Giving Merkel a "bill" was a way for putting Germany on notice but only a moron would think it was an actual payment we are expecting.
Merkel is trying to use the pacifist route as an excuse for Germany not pulling its weight. I see what Trump did as a way to let them know that we expect them to uphold their obligations. The next step will be to renegotiate the charter, and quite frankly I hope we do that. I'm in favor of a full withdrawal so I could personally care less about the optics of what Trump did.
NATO needs us. We don't need NATO. Period.
Entertaining ploy by Trump, earns some creativity points for sure.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
CID1990 wrote:You never fail to miss the point JSOJohnStOnge wrote:
I don't think we are spending on NATO per se. I think we are spending what we spend on the military in our own self interest. We are exerting influence. And we get to have bases all over the place in order to do that.
I think that, if all the other countries in NATO said, "Fine, United States. We're dissolving NATO. Get all your bases, materials, and troops out of our countries" we would be horrified. Of course they wouldn't do that because they have an interest in maintaining the situation as well.
But we're not spending what we spend on our military because NATO makes us. We're doing that because we want to. We can argue about whether we should want to spend as much as we do on the military as we do. But we're not doing it because of NATO. In fact without NATO we might be spending more.
It isn't the military expenditures that make NATO bad for America
NATO is the very definition of an entangling alliance - when the belief that the aim of the Soviet Union was to dominate the globe via state communism (and did nothing to dispel that belief) then NATO made sense to a degree
It no longer does, and now we are bound by treaty to enter a war between Russia and any number of European countries that do not take their own defense seriously. Or Turkey. Take your pick. Germany has the ability to individually defend the continent and they choose not to. Germany could surpass Russia in military capabilities within 5-10 years if they wanted to. That right there is why we should pull out
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
I saw that is was a %, just curious as Greece hasn't seemed to pay any bills the last couple of years.CAA Flagship wrote:AS PERCENTAGE OF GDP.SeattleGriz wrote: Did NATO really get that much from Greece?
Their GDP is shit.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Here is the GDP stats for Greece. Scroll down to see comparison with other countries. 2% isn't enough to defend themselves from a family of alligators invading their shores.SeattleGriz wrote:I saw that is was a %, just curious as Greece hasn't seemed to pay any bills the last couple of years.CAA Flagship wrote: AS PERCENTAGE OF GDP.
Their GDP is shit.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/gdp
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
Low-brow move by the Manhattan Hillbilly.
I believe the NATO 2% has to be put in context. They likely spend a similar percentage as the US for readiness, training and operations. America spends more deploying our 'special interests' (nod-nod, wink-wink), and that's what NATO is pretty much all about. It begins with a B and ends with a 61. We're spending a lot on that.
And, a lot on 'overseas contingency operations,' R&D and procurement <---- BINGO!
We want them to spend more 'procure-ing' our stuff. We make some good stuff.
I believe the NATO 2% has to be put in context. They likely spend a similar percentage as the US for readiness, training and operations. America spends more deploying our 'special interests' (nod-nod, wink-wink), and that's what NATO is pretty much all about. It begins with a B and ends with a 61. We're spending a lot on that.
And, a lot on 'overseas contingency operations,' R&D and procurement <---- BINGO!
We want them to spend more 'procure-ing' our stuff. We make some good stuff.
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Re: Trump Gave Merkel an Invoice for NATO
They don't. Germany and other countries put their eggs in the operational basket and little else. They have zero support and logistics, and no transport. They (and the rest of NATO) depend entirely on us for moving their crap around and putting gas in it.Aho Old Guy wrote:Low-brow move by the Manhattan Hillbilly.
I believe the NATO 2% has to be put in context. They likely spend a similar percentage as the US for readiness, training and operations. America spends more deploying our 'special interests' (nod-nod, wink-wink), and that's what NATO is pretty much all about. It begins with a B and ends with a 61. We're spending a lot on that.
And, a lot on 'overseas contingency operations,' R&D and procurement <---- BINGO!
We want them to spend more 'procure-ing' our stuff. We make some good stuff.
And if our goal is money for Northrop Grumman, then we should be pulling out if NATO entirely. Defense stocks would double the next day.
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