Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

[89Hen]

rethuglicans

You kinda shoot yourself in the foot there Russian. No better way to show your non-partisanship.

[kalm]

Flynn being sacked was the right outcome. If the FBI finds other wrongdoing then that should also be followed up on, and prosecuted if necessary. That's how it is supposed to work.

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

If I see wrongdoing in my lane I have outlets. For criminal activity with a counterintelligence flavor, I have a number of appropriate places to go - CNN is not one of them. Again, unelected government entities decided to shape and manipulate public perceptions of the executive by leaking to the media what it absolutely classified information (methods) and whistleblower protections do not cover that. This is as troubling, if not more so than the Russian hacking (because that's what the Russians do by design- we should counter it better).

This sh1t cuts both ways and people taking solace in Flynn being brought low should consider that if public employees can do this with impunity then it is a clear risk to security, both domestic and foreign.

One other thing that indicates to me that this was inappropriate- this information was almost certainly being investigated by the appropriate agency - the FBI - and therefore the leaks both exposed an ongoing probe prior to any finding of fact. Somebody from within wanted to hurt the administration now, rather than waiting for the legitimate wheels to turn. It should be chilling to everyone that the bureaucracy has this amount of control, because it encourages exactly the kind of sh1t Clinton did- it encourages a lack of transparency in government.

I am confident that Flynn would have been sacked anyway - on the recommendation of the FBI to the AG, but now the intelligence community has served notice that it cannot be trusted, and that is bad for everybody.


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Thanks for the info.

Question: the leakers have to realize the same things, why do you think they'd run the risk of getting prosecuted with a felony?

[mrklean]

More Repuke Excuses
So Typical

Uhhh...Obama was a lying sack of sh1t. Public face saying one thing...but secretly making other deals.

It's OK, you can admit it.

Details

[Skjellyfetti]

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

Did you have a similar opinion when a whistleblower leaked information to break the Fast and Furious scandal, Benghazi, etc.? Or, no? I'm sure you went on a similar rant in one of those threads?




Leaks are a part of every administration. This one has been particularly leaky... but, there's quite a bit of leaking coming out of the White House itself.

It's also probably not a good idea to call your intelligence agencies Nazis as soon as you get on the job.

[GannonFan]

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

Did you have a similar opinion when a whistleblower leaked information to break the Fast and Furious scandal, Benghazi, etc.? Or, no?




Leaks are a part of every administration. This one has been particularly leaky... but, there's quite a bit of leaking coming out of the White House itself. Its also probably not a good idea to call your intelligence agencies Nazis as soon as you get on the job.

Agreed, Trump did himself no favors by trolling the career folks in the intelligence community, but then again, when you tout yourself as a populist outsider you're going to annoy the folks that are entrenched in the government no matter who is in power.

With that said, I'm not ready to call anything yet. Every story I've read, somewhere deep into the article and away from the headlines, has said that it's not uncommon for political campaigns to have talked with representatives of foreign governments during campaigns. And of course, there's nothing illegal about doing that either. Flynn lying about having a conversation, especially saying it publicly or to the President, well that deserves what he got, but by itself it's not a scandal.

I'm waiting for the Russian communique that is translated and reads "hey comrade Donald, campaign in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, we think Hillary is missing the boat and is ignoring those states" before I'm convinced that talking led to anything of significance.

[Skjellyfetti]

Yeah, I agree there is no smoking gun yet. But, they're leaking bit by bit until it's unsustainable.

Monday, the White House says Trump has "full confidence" in Flynn.
Leak: White House has known for weeks that Flynn lied to Pence.

Yesterday, the White House says that no Trump officials communicated with Russian officials during campaign.
Leak: Several White House officials had repeated contacts with Russian officials.

I agree that there is nothing illegal on the face of much of this. But, if the administration continues to lie, they're going to continually get called out on it.

They could save face by just being straight. If they were discussing innocuous things with Russian officials (which will be what their story is now, I'm sure) - then, just fucking say that in the first place and don't say that noone in the campaign had contact with Russian officials. There's a reason for the lying, imo.



And, this was Obama's final salvo to make sure this information was spread. I'm surprised Trump hasn't reversed this yet.

In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.

The new rules significantly relax longstanding limits on what the N.S.A. may do with the information gathered by its most powerful surveillance operations, which are largely unregulated by American wiretapping laws. These include collecting satellite transmissions, phone calls and emails that cross network switches abroad, and messages between people abroad that cross domestic network switches.

The change means that far more officials will be searching through raw data. Essentially, the government is reducing the risk that the N.S.A. will fail to recognize that a piece of information would be valuable to another agency, but increasing the risk that officials will see private information about innocent people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/p ... .html?_r=0

[GannonFan]

Yeah, I agree there is no smoking gun yet. But, they're leaking bit by bit until it's unsustainable.

Monday, the White House says Trump has "full confidence" in Flynn.
Leak: White House has known for weeks that Flynn lied to Pence.

Yesterday, the White House says that no Trump officials communicated with Russian officials during campaign.
Leak: Several White House officials had repeated contacts with Russian officials.

I agree that there is nothing illegal on the face of much of this. But, if the administration continues to lie, they're going to continually get called out on it.

They could save face by just being straight. If they were discussing innocuous things with Russian officials (which will be what their story is now, I'm sure) - then, just **** say that in the first place and don't say that noone in the campaign had contact with Russian officials. There's a reason for the lying, imo.



And, this was Obama's final salvo to make sure this information was spread. I'm surprised Trump hasn't reversed this yet.

In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.

The new rules significantly relax longstanding limits on what the N.S.A. may do with the information gathered by its most powerful surveillance operations, which are largely unregulated by American wiretapping laws. These include collecting satellite transmissions, phone calls and emails that cross network switches abroad, and messages between people abroad that cross domestic network switches.

The change means that far more officials will be searching through raw data. Essentially, the government is reducing the risk that the N.S.A. will fail to recognize that a piece of information would be valuable to another agency, but increasing the risk that officials will see private information about innocent people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/p ... .html?_r=0

But the problem also lies in the culture we're at right now - if anyone says they talked to a Russian then instantly people start posting the definition of treason on social media. Even the definition of what a Russian intelligence agent is is wide open for speculation. Heck, NPR this morning basically said that anyone who is Russian and runs a business in Russia is informally part of the wide web that is the Russian intelligence agency. There are literally Russian spies everywhere. We are so hyper-partisan at this point in time that there is little anyone can do or say that isn't going to be considered anathema going forward.

[Skjellyfetti]

Heck, NPR this morning basically said that anyone who is Russian and runs a business in Russia is informally part of the wide web that is the Russian intelligence agency.

Well, this sounds like nonsense, but I'd guess I would have to listen to whatever you heard. But, even if this was true - I don't think we're talking about this "informal" wide web. The report says "senior Russian intelligence officials."

Perhaps that is incorrect and they were low level and marginally connected. But, if it is - it's easy to debunk and if a piece of a story like this is debunked... then the entire thing begins to disintegrate. The White House would jump at a chance to do that. So far they've just called it both "fake news" and "consipracy theories" as well as "dangerous leaks." Seems contradictory. It can't be both "fake news" and "dangerous leaks."

But, I'd be curious how every Russian business owner is informally part of Russian intelligence since that includes my father-in-law. Очень интересно!

[GannonFan]

Heck, NPR this morning basically said that anyone who is Russian and runs a business in Russia is informally part of the wide web that is the Russian intelligence agency.

Well, this sounds like nonsense, but I'd guess I would have to listen to whatever you heard. But, even if this was true - I don't think we're talking about this "informal" wide web. The report says "senior Russian intelligence officials."

Perhaps that is incorrect and they were low level and marginally connected. But, if it is - it's easy to debunk and if a piece of a story like this is debunked... then the entire thing begins to disintegrate. The White House would jump at a chance to do that. So far they've just called it both "fake news" and "consipracy theories" as well as "dangerous leaks." Seems contradictory. It can't be both "fake news" and "dangerous leaks."

But, I'd be curious how every Russian business owner is informally part of Russian intelligence since that includes my father-in-law. Очень интересно!

It was specifically in reference to the people that Manafort talked with.

[CID1990]

Flynn being sacked was the right outcome. If the FBI finds other wrongdoing then that should also be followed up on, and prosecuted if necessary. That's how it is supposed to work.

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

If I see wrongdoing in my lane I have outlets. For criminal activity with a counterintelligence flavor, I have a number of appropriate places to go - CNN is not one of them. Again, unelected government entities decided to shape and manipulate public perceptions of the executive by leaking to the media what it absolutely classified information (methods) and whistleblower protections do not cover that. This is as troubling, if not more so than the Russian hacking (because that's what the Russians do by design- we should counter it better).

This sh1t cuts both ways and people taking solace in Flynn being brought low should consider that if public employees can do this with impunity then it is a clear risk to security, both domestic and foreign.

One other thing that indicates to me that this was inappropriate- this information was almost certainly being investigated by the appropriate agency - the FBI - and therefore the leaks both exposed an ongoing probe prior to any finding of fact. Somebody from within wanted to hurt the administration now, rather than waiting for the legitimate wheels to turn. It should be chilling to everyone that the bureaucracy has this amount of control, because it encourages exactly the kind of sh1t Clinton did- it encourages a lack of transparency in government.

I am confident that Flynn would have been sacked anyway - on the recommendation of the FBI to the AG, but now the intelligence community has served notice that it cannot be trusted, and that is bad for everybody.


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Thanks for the info.

Question: the leakers have to realize the same things, why do you think they'd run the risk of getting prosecuted with a felony?

Because they don't understand how to properly execute their civil duties? You'd be surprised at the lack of true understanding of duty and honorable conduct within the government.

I see a lot of wildly inappropriate activity from colleagues at work - things on social media that make me wonder what the hell they would do behind closed doors - things that would have relegated me to a permanent assignment in the mail room if I had said them 8 years ago.

There's a lot of moralizing over this but to me it all rings false and cowardly, and represents a dangerous indicator of just how pervasive our government apparatus is.

I cannot fathom a situation where I would leak info to the press rather than report it to the FBI or Dip Security. I don't care who the executive is.


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[CID1990]

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

Did you have a similar opinion when a whistleblower leaked information to break the Fast and Furious scandal, Benghazi, etc.? Or, no? I'm sure you went on a similar rant in one of those threads?




Leaks are a part of every administration. This one has been particularly leaky... but, there's quite a bit of leaking coming out of the White House itself.

It's also probably not a good idea to call your intelligence agencies Nazis as soon as you get on the job.

I was certain you'd pop up with a "yes but" response.

Benghazi- not criminal activity - and it was an unforced error by the Obama admin which didnt need leaks to become a thing.

Fast and Furious- I didn't consider F&F to have major implications for national security - except that it may have indirectly led to the death of a law enforcement officer. It is my understanding that it was also "leaked" to some members of Congress, which, as with the Snowden case, would not have been inappropriate.

This leak has direct implications to natsec, and on the surface, might be a serious felony depending on what was said between Flynn and the Russian AMB. There IS a difference.

As for your comment about Trump's relationship with our intel agencies- immaterial. And it shows that you have the same mentality as the people who ignored their duty and did not take it to the FBI where it belongs. For example, if someone with your mentality applied for a job with a security clearance, I would report it to your background investigators rather than tell the local newspaper after you get the job. That's the difference.

Saying "leaks happen" doesn't make it appropriate unless the leak is authorized (and many if them are- Bill Clinton's admin took it to a science). The intel community is supposed to do its job without prejudice - to be at war with this President over insults is alarming.


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[Skjellyfetti]

Of course saying "leaks happen" doesn't make it appropriate. I don't really care what's appropriate, though.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a scandal that would have still broken without leaking. I'm all for whistleblower protections... and, yes Obama had a terrible record on this.

We just simply disagree.

If nothing comes of this... if it's all smoke and there was nothing shady going on between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence... and, it's simply intelligence officials trying to damage Trump with no major underlying the accusations... I'll agree with you. But, I don't think this is the way this is going. We'll see.

But, this is absolutely the MO of how these things happen.

It's not just Watergate. Look at Blagojevich. There were steady leaks from the FBI over the course of FOUR YEARS before it was over. Small, nothing major... producing denials and dismissals by Blago. There were more leaks that contradicted his denials. Then, they drop the bomb shell (FBI recorded audio). It's their fucking method of investigation... repeated time and time again.

If Trump, his campaign, or his staff have been compromised... I can't think of much that would be a higher national security interest.

[CID1990]

Of course saying "leaks happen" doesn't make it appropriate. I don't really care what's appropriate, though.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a scandal that would have still broken without leaking. I'm all for whistleblower protections... and, yes Obama had a terrible record on this.

We just simply disagree.

If nothing comes of this... if it's all smoke and there was nothing shady going on between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence... and, it's simply intelligence officials trying to damage Trump with no major underlying the accusations... I'll agree with you. But, I don't think this is the way this is going. We'll see.

But, this is absolutely the MO of how these things happen.

It's not just Watergate. Look at Blagojevich. There were steady leaks from the FBI over the course of FOUR YEARS before it was over. Small, nothing major... producing denials and dismissals by Blago. There were more leaks that contradicted his denials. Then, they drop the bomb shell (FBI recorded audio). It's their **** method of investigation... repeated time and time again.

If Trump, his campaign, or his staff have been compromised... I can't think of much that would be a higher national security interest.

I'll leave you to continue to completely miss the point. Carry on


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[Pwns]

Is there no chance here that Trump's inner circle is just setting one big booby trap for the media? Just letting them keep digging until they hit a water main and come up with mud all over them?

[CID1990]

Is there no chance here that Trump's inner circle is just setting one big booby trap for the media? Just letting them keep digging until they hit a water main and come up with mud all over them?

Doubtful.

But the media will invariably do it to themselves- it's currently a feeding frenzy and CNN has already shot themselves in the foot a couple times. It is actually kind of surprising because with this admin all you really need to do as a journalist is sit back and let the stories come to you


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[Skjellyfetti]

It's possible. There are theories that there's a power struggle between Priebus and Pence vs. Bannon and Miller - more establishment Republicans vs. Trump's guys. Flynn's resignation and how it happened sorta points that direction with Priebus and Pence winning.

I don't see it as an overall administration strategy - because Trump, Bannon, and Miller were all too close to Flynn for that to be it.

And, there have been a TON of leaks coming out of the administration. Not just coming from the intelligence community related to Russia... but, fairly innocuous stuff... that only his inner circle would know.

[Skjellyfetti]

Foreign intelligence joins in the fun.

U.S. ALLIES CONDUCT INTELLIGENCE OPERATION AGAINST TRUMP STAFF AND ASSOCIATES, INTERCEPTED COMMUNICATIONS

As part of intelligence operations being conducted against the United States for the last seven months, at least one Western European ally intercepted a series of communications before the inauguration between advisers associated with President Donald Trump and Russian government officials, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation.

The sources said the interceptions include at least one contact between former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and a Russian official based in the United States. It could not be confirmed whether this involved the telephone call with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak that has led to Flynn’s resignation, or additional communications. The sources said the intercepted communications are not just limited to telephone calls: The foreign agency is also gathering electronic and human source information on Trump’s overseas business partners, at least some of whom the intelligence services now consider to be agents of their respective governments. These operations are being conducted out of concerns that Russia is seeking to manipulate its relationships with Trump administration officials as part of a long-term plan to destabilize the NATO alliance.

Moreover, a Baltic nation is gathering intelligence on officials in the Trump White House and executives with the president’s company, the Trump Organization, out of concern that an American policy shift toward Russia could endanger its sovereignty, according to a third person with direct ties to that nation’s government.

Some details about Trump’s business partners were passed to the American government months ago. For example, long before the president’s inauguration, German electronic surveillance determined that the father of Trump’s Azerbaijani business partner is a government official who laundered money for the Iranian military; that information was shared with the CIA, according to a European source with direct knowledge of the situation.

Of equal concern to our allies is Trump’s business partner in the Philippines, who is also the special representative to Washington of that country’s president, Rodrigo Duterte. This government official, Jose E.B. Antonio, is the head of Century Properties, which in turn is a partner with the president’s business in the construction of Trump Tower at Century City in Makati, Philippines. According to people with direct knowledge of the situation, a European intelligence service has obtained the contracts and other legal documents in the deal between the Trump Organization and Antonio. That deal has already resulted in large payments to Trump’s business, with millions of dollars more on the way—all coming from an agent of the Philippine president.

http://www.newsweek.com/allies-intercep ... ons-557283

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

He's out because he lied and made team Trump look bad. There's also a chance the whole Russia-Trump connection has traction and they're now in full damage control.

So what's the over on the date of Putin's first White House visit?

Whenever it happens it will be the first time a real leader has been in the Whitehouse since Reagan was there.

[HI54UNI]

It's possible. There are theories that there's a power struggle between Priebus and Pence vs. Bannon and Miller - more establishment Republicans vs. Trump's guys. Flynn's resignation and how it happened sorta points that direction with Priebus and Pence winning.

I don't see it as an overall administration strategy - because Trump, Bannon, and Miller were all too close to Flynn for that to be it.

And, there have been a TON of leaks coming out of the administration. Not just coming from the intelligence community related to Russia... but, fairly innocuous stuff... that only his inner circle would know.

Notice how there are no hit pieces in the media about Priebus but a lot on Bannon, Miller, etc. Does that mean Priebus or his cronies are the source of the leaks or is it merely a coincidence?

[CitadelGrad]

That said, everybody should be concerned that unelected government employees have leaked this information to the media, rather than going to the proper places with it. In other words, this is an indicator that the Federal government is in fact a self propelling, self interested machine. There ARE proper outlets. This is no different from what Snowden did.

Did you have a similar opinion when a whistleblower leaked information to break the Fast and Furious scandal, Benghazi, etc.? Or, no? I'm sure you went on a similar rant in one of those threads?




Leaks are a part of every administration. This one has been particularly leaky... but, there's quite a bit of leaking coming out of the White House itself.

It's also probably not a good idea to call your intelligence agencies Nazis as soon as you get on the job.

I don't recall leaks related to Benghazi or Fast and Furious.

When a U.S. ambassador is murdered overseas, it's kind of hard to keep that kind of thing a secret.

When a Border Patrol agent is murdered by a gun from the U.S. government's illegal gun-running operation, it should be reported and was.

[Skjellyfetti]

Flynn in FBI interview denied discussing sanctions with Russian ambassador

Former national security adviser Michael Flynn denied to FBI agents in an interview last month that he had discussed U.S. sanctions against Russia with that country’s ambassador to the United States before President Trump took office, contradicting the contents of intercepted communications collected by intelligence agencies, current and former U.S. officials said.

The Jan. 24 interview potentially puts Flynn in legal jeopardy. Lying to the FBI is a felony offense. But several officials said it is unclear whether prosecutors would attempt to bring a case, in part because Flynn may parse the definition of the word “sanctions.” He also followed his denial to the FBI by saying he couldn’t recall all of the conversation, officials said.

Any decision to prosecute would ultimately lie with the Justice Department.

A spokesman for Flynn said he had no response. The FBI and the Justice Department declined to comment.

Flynn spoke to Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak following Trump’s election and denied for weeks that the December conversation involved sanctions the Obama administration imposed on Russia in response to its purported meddling in the U.S. election. Flynn’s denial to the FBI was similar to what he had told Trump’s advisers, according to the officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 93bb3a97a1

[Vidav]

rethuglicans

You kinda shoot yourself in the foot there Russian. No better way to show your non-partisanship.

I honestly only ever use that term on this forum because I think it's funny.

[Vidav]

So what's the over on the date of Putin's first White House visit?

Whenever it happens it will be the first time a real leader has been in the Whitehouse since Reagan was there.

[93henfan]

Russian spy ship currently off the coast of Delaware..
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/14/ru ... s-say.html

No match for 93henfan on a surfboard with his AR.

Tax-free vodka. It's not the first time.

[CID1990]

Dennis Kucinich with a similar take on this and he's absolutely correct (even though the Comey part isn't quite that simple)

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-de ... ion-557987


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