Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

Then charges should be forthcoming.... any day now

:coffee:

I’m gonna do some “but Hillary” here since you defended her email shenanigans

Remember how you held her to a different standard?


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by JohnStOnge »

SDHornet wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Even Barr's statements indicated that Mueller found things that could be construed as obstruction of justice. There's obviously a LOT more than just, "Orange Man Bad."

There's also stuff like this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... f-n1002436

Really man. This thing of trying to act like there's NO reason for a statement like Amash issued is ridiculous. If we had this situation, the President involved was a Democrat, and the Republicans were in control of Congress they would ALREADY have filed articles of impeachment.
Cool story bro. Tell the leftists in the House to impeach or STFU. :coffee:
Yes. I know. That's the Republican schtick right now. And it's probably a good schtick tactically. But it's intellectually dishonest.

We all know that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were talking about a Democrat President doing what Trump did the Republicans in Congress would be howling for impeachment and removal. And, yes, I know that the Democrats would be doing what the Republicans are doing now. At least I think I know. I'm not quite sure because what Clinton did wasn't nearly as bad as what Trump did. So I can't quite use the way the Democrats behaved then as a model.

And BTW I don't even think we needed the Mueller report to tell us that Trump obstructed justice in terms of the way obstructing justice if obstruction of justice is defined as trying to impede an investigation. Trump did that in plain sight.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Cool story bro. Tell the leftists in the House to impeach or STFU. :coffee:
Yes. I know. That's the Republican schtick right now. And it's probably a good schtick tactically. But it's intellectually dishonest.

We all know that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were talking about a Democrat President doing what Trump did the Republicans in Congress would be howling for impeachment and removal. And, yes, I know that the Democrats would be doing what the Republicans are doing now. At least I think I know. I'm not quite sure because what Clinton did wasn't nearly as bad as what Trump did. So I can't quite use the way the Democrats behaved then as a model.

And BTW I don't even think we needed the Mueller report to tell us that Trump obstructed justice in terms of the way obstructing justice if obstruction of justice is defined as trying to impede an investigation. Trump did that in plain sight.
What did Trump do that hasn't been covered by AG Barr and Rosenstein?
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Yes. I know. That's the Republican schtick right now. And it's probably a good schtick tactically. But it's intellectually dishonest.

We all know that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were talking about a Democrat President doing what Trump did the Republicans in Congress would be howling for impeachment and removal. And, yes, I know that the Democrats would be doing what the Republicans are doing now. At least I think I know. I'm not quite sure because what Clinton did wasn't nearly as bad as what Trump did. So I can't quite use the way the Democrats behaved then as a model.

And BTW I don't even think we needed the Mueller report to tell us that Trump obstructed justice in terms of the way obstructing justice if obstruction of justice is defined as trying to impede an investigation. Trump did that in plain sight.
What did Trump do that hasn't been covered by AG Barr and Rosenstein?
Nothing that was in the Barr report. But, obviously, there are many who have looked at the report and disagree with their conclusions on the obstruction of justice issues. That includes hundreds of former prosecutors from both political parties. Another thing is that the standard for impeachment is different than the standard for criminal prosecution. At least that's what everybody says.

When it comes to the "collusion" thing, Mueller specifically said he wasn't getting into that. The way I read what I've read so far, Mueller was looking at two specific election interference efforts by the Russian government. One was a Social Media campaign conducted by the Russian Internet Research Agency. The other was the hacking of the Democratic Party e mails by the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Army (which is for some reason abbreviated as "GRU"). As I'm reading it Mueller was narrowly looking at whether people in the Trump campaign agreed to assist the Russian government in those two specific efforts. And he concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to conclude that any had. That's it.

To say that means Mueller broadly and affirmatively found that there was "no collusion" with Russians is either intellectually dishonest or ignorant.

And in fact we all know that Manafort, for example, was discussing strategies for winning midwestern states with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence while sharing internal campaign polling data on what was going on in those states with those guys. Mueller said they couldn't say it was part of the potential conspiracies he was looking into, in part, because he doesn't know what the guy with connections to Russian intelligence DID with the data. But Manafort was OBVIOUSLY cooperating with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes the fact that it happened.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by css75 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
What did Trump do that hasn't been covered by AG Barr and Rosenstein?
Nothing that was in the Barr report. But, obviously, there are many who have looked at the report and disagree with their conclusions on the obstruction of justice issues. That includes hundreds of former prosecutors from both political parties. Another thing is that the standard for impeachment is different than the standard for criminal prosecution. At least that's what everybody says.

When it comes to the "collusion" thing, Mueller specifically said he wasn't getting into that. The way I read what I've read so far, Mueller was looking at two specific election interference efforts by the Russian government. One was a Social Media campaign conducted by the Russian Internet Research Agency. The other was the hacking of the Democratic Party e mails by the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Army (which is for some reason abbreviated as "GRU"). As I'm reading it Mueller was narrowly looking at whether people in the Trump campaign agreed to assist the Russian government in those two specific efforts. And he concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to conclude that any had. That's it.

To say that means Mueller broadly and affirmatively found that there was "no collusion" with Russians is either intellectually dishonest or ignorant.

And in fact we all know that Manafort, for example, was discussing strategies for winning midwestern states with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence while sharing internal campaign polling data on what was going on in those states with those guys. Mueller said they couldn't say it was part of the potential conspiracies he was looking into, in part, because he doesn't know what the guy with connections to Russian intelligence DID with the data. But Manafort was OBVIOUSLY cooperating with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes the fact that it happened.
John, Mueller had 18 rabid Democrats, manyHillary donors, they took 2 years and found zilch. Do you not think if they had something they would have pursued. Your TDS has taken your power of rational thought away.


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by BDKJMU »

"Pelosi clashes with fellow Dems in closed-door debate on impeachment

Reps. David Cicilline (D-R.I.), Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), and Joe Neguse (D-Colo.) — all members of the Democratic leadership — pushed to begin impeachment proceedings during a leadership meeting in Pelosi's office, said the sources....."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/ ... nt-1336587

Do it. Do it. Please do it! :nod:
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

BDKJMU wrote:"Pelosi clashes with fellow Dems in closed-door debate on impeachment

Reps. David Cicilline (D-R.I.), Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), and Joe Neguse (D-Colo.) — all members of the Democratic leadership — pushed to begin impeachment proceedings during a leadership meeting in Pelosi's office, said the sources....."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/ ... nt-1336587

Do it. Do it. Please do it! :nod:
It won’t happen.

These people using the criminal standard to justify a purely political act...

Pelosi rightly wants to push a legislative agenda but she can’t do it without the young Turks... it will be interesting to see. She’s going to have to appease the progs by offering them some authorship as well as running a lot of interference for the Jew baiting- but that will backfire because any bill containing unicorns from the simpleton sorority is going to be DOA

This is going to be an empty session in the House (nit much different from the status quo ante)


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by Pwns »

Nancy Pelosi is going to feel exactly like John Boehner did in 2011. :lol:

Speaker of the House.
Keeper of the zoo.
Babysitter of AOC and Ilhan Omar too!
Listens to 'em whine, much as she can take.
Cleaning up the messes they leave in their wake!
Then they say "we want impeachment!"
"Nancy give it all you got!"
Dirty bunch of proggies Jesus what a sorry little lot!
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by Ivytalk »

Pwns wrote:Nancy Pelosi is going to feel exactly like John Boehner did in 2011. :lol:

Speaker of the House.
Keeper of the zoo.
Babysitter of AOC and Ilhan Omar too!
Listens to 'em whine, much as she can take.
Cleaning up the messes they leave in their wake!
Then they say "we want impeachment!"
"Nancy give it all you got!"
Dirty bunch of proggies Jesus what a sorry little lot!
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by JohnStOnge »

css75 wrote:[

John, Mueller had 18 rabid Democrats, manyHillary donors, they took 2 years and found zilch. Do you not think if they had something they would have pursued. Your TDS has taken your power of rational thought away.


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It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
css75 wrote:[

John, Mueller had 18 rabid Democrats, manyHillary donors, they took 2 years and found zilch. Do you not think if they had something they would have pursued. Your TDS has taken your power of rational thought away.


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It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
Zilch is a good description of what was found as it pertains to a conspiracy with Russians


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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote:
css75 wrote:[

John, Mueller had 18 rabid Democrats, manyHillary donors, they took 2 years and found zilch. Do you not think if they had something they would have pursued. Your TDS has taken your power of rational thought away.


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It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
Tell me more about this polling data. That sounds bad.
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Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote:
css75 wrote:[

John, Mueller had 18 rabid Democrats, manyHillary donors, they took 2 years and found zilch. Do you not think if they had something they would have pursued. Your TDS has taken your power of rational thought away.


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It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
You and your fucking pitchfork-laden witch hunt are Exhibit A for why “beyond a reasonable doubt” exists. You’d have the motherfucker strung up tomorrow if you had your way.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by SeattleGriz »

Russian Consulate in Miami! Good old Source E from the Steele collection.

I personally liked when Steele used iReport to find claims.

Steele was a super spy right?
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Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

SeattleGriz wrote:Russian Consulate in Miami! Good old Source E from the Steele collection.

I personally liked when Steele used iReport to find claims.

Steele was a super spy right?
You’d be surprised how much good data is on the internets

A good spook can do 90% of his work from his living room these days

BTW... Russian consulates in the US are all KGB

Or FSB... I cant let go of my okd acronyms


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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by UNI88 »

AZGrizFan wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
You and your **** pitchfork-laden witch hunt are Exhibit A for why “beyond a reasonable doubt” exists. You’d have the motherfucker strung up tomorrow if you had your way.
Would that be bad in the short run? We wouldn't have Trump or Hildamort (many of the cases against her were stronger than against Trump - email, Foundation, Benghazi).

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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

UNI88 wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
You and your **** pitchfork-laden witch hunt are Exhibit A for why “beyond a reasonable doubt” exists. You’d have the motherfucker strung up tomorrow if you had your way.
Would that be bad in the short run? We wouldn't have Trump or Hildamort (many of the cases against her were stronger than against Trump - email, Foundation, Benghazi).

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Why are you trolling John with more than one (very short) sentence?

The game is to get 10 paragraphs out of him with just a word

We’ll call it the Salome Award


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by Ivytalk »

CID1990 wrote:
UNI88 wrote:Would that be bad in the short run? We wouldn't have Trump or Hildamort (many of the cases against her were stronger than against Trump - email, Foundation, Benghazi).

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Why are you trolling John with more than one (very short) sentence?

The game is to get 10 paragraphs out of him with just a word

We’ll call it the Salome Award


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Do invented words count? Something like “TrumpBestPOTUS”
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by Ivytalk »

CID1990 wrote:
UNI88 wrote:Would that be bad in the short run? We wouldn't have Trump or Hildamort (many of the cases against her were stronger than against Trump - email, Foundation, Benghazi).

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Why are you trolling John with more than one (very short) sentence?

The game is to get 10 paragraphs out of him with just a word

We’ll call it the Salome Award


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Reminds me of the classic old “Silent Cal” Coolidge joke:

A gushy society lady comes up to Coolidge at a party and says, “Mr. President, I made a bet today that I could get more than two words out of you!”

“You lose,” he replied.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
It is not a "zilch" thing. That is the spin. It is not the reality.

They did not find sufficient evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges at the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with respect to two specific efforts by the Russian government. They did find plenty of interaction between people in the Trump campaign and Russians. Such as Manafort sharing polling data on key midwestern States with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Oh and stuff like Mueller's people deciding they couldn't go after Trump Jr. for the Trump Tower meeting because they couldn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he KNEW he was violating the law.

They also clearly stated that they found possible evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of Trump himself. But they did so in the context of saying that they would not make a traditional prosecutorial judgement. So they left it hanging.

Many, many people who are reasonably qualified to assess the situation have said Mueller's report indicates Trump obstructed justice. Even somebody like Fox News' Andrew Napolitano. Yes, there are others who have assessed otherwise. But the point is that the claim that there is "zilch" is kind of ridiculous.
Zilch is a good description of what was found as it pertains to a conspiracy with Russians


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No, it's not. Again: They did not find sufficient evidence to bring criminal charges of conspiracy with the Russian government with respect to two specific Russian government efforts given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

This thing where people are saying they didn't find any evidence of cooperation, collusion, or conspiracy with Russians in general because they did not find sufficient evidence to bring charges given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard reminds me of the common misinterpretation in statistics whereby people say the test showed that there was "no difference" or "no effect" because the test did not show sufficient evidence at 95% confidence to say there was a difference or an effect. No. When you're using a rigorous standard like that saying you failed to develop sufficient evidence to meet that standard is NOT the same thing as saying "there's no evidence of that."

The candidate's campaign chairman was discussing key midwestern states and sharing internal campaign polling data with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes that. Saying there's "zilch" in the face of common knowledge of that going on is not defensible.
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Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Zilch is a good description of what was found as it pertains to a conspiracy with Russians


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No, it's not. Again: They did not find sufficient evidence to bring criminal charges of conspiracy with the Russian government with respect to two specific Russian government efforts given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

This thing where people are saying they didn't find any evidence of cooperation, collusion, or conspiracy with Russians in general because they did not find sufficient evidence to bring charges given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard reminds me of the common misinterpretation in statistics whereby people say the test showed that there was "no difference" or "no effect" because the test did not show sufficient evidence at 95% confidence to say there was a difference or an effect. No. When you're using a rigorous standard like that saying you failed to develop sufficient evidence to meet that standard is NOT the same thing as saying "there's no evidence of that."

The candidate's campaign chairman was discussing key midwestern states and sharing internal campaign polling data with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes that. Saying there's "zilch" in the face of common knowledge of that going on is not defensible.
Hey John

They also found zero evidence that I kidnapped the Lindbergh Baby

i.e.: they didn’t find enough to charge me with it

Doesn’t mean I didn’t do it, though I guess




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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by SeattleGriz »

Super spies work virtual? Sweet, I want to be a spy now.
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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Zilch is a good description of what was found as it pertains to a conspiracy with Russians


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No, it's not. Again: They did not find sufficient evidence to bring criminal charges of conspiracy with the Russian government with respect to two specific Russian government efforts given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

This thing where people are saying they didn't find any evidence of cooperation, collusion, or conspiracy with Russians in general because they did not find sufficient evidence to bring charges given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard reminds me of the common misinterpretation in statistics whereby people say the test showed that there was "no difference" or "no effect" because the test did not show sufficient evidence at 95% confidence to say there was a difference or an effect. No. When you're using a rigorous standard like that saying you failed to develop sufficient evidence to meet that standard is NOT the same thing as saying "there's no evidence of that."

The candidate's campaign chairman was discussing key midwestern states and sharing internal campaign polling data with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes that. Saying there's "zilch" in the face of common knowledge of that going on is not defensible.
Bro. One paragraph please. I want to read what you say, but man you type a lot.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by JohnStOnge »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
No, it's not. Again: They did not find sufficient evidence to bring criminal charges of conspiracy with the Russian government with respect to two specific Russian government efforts given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

This thing where people are saying they didn't find any evidence of cooperation, collusion, or conspiracy with Russians in general because they did not find sufficient evidence to bring charges given the beyond a reasonable doubt standard reminds me of the common misinterpretation in statistics whereby people say the test showed that there was "no difference" or "no effect" because the test did not show sufficient evidence at 95% confidence to say there was a difference or an effect. No. When you're using a rigorous standard like that saying you failed to develop sufficient evidence to meet that standard is NOT the same thing as saying "there's no evidence of that."

The candidate's campaign chairman was discussing key midwestern states and sharing internal campaign polling data with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence. Nobody even disputes that. Saying there's "zilch" in the face of common knowledge of that going on is not defensible.
Hey John

They also found zero evidence that I kidnapped the Lindbergh Baby

i.e.: they didn’t find enough to charge me with it

Doesn’t mean I didn’t do it, though I guess




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Not the same thing. The Mueller report found numerous interactions with the Russians including that thing where the campaign director shared internal polling data. It's not a "there was nothing" scenario.

There are indeed situation in which one can say "nothing at all was found to indicate." This is not one of them.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Hey John

They also found zero evidence that I kidnapped the Lindbergh Baby

i.e.: they didn’t find enough to charge me with it

Doesn’t mean I didn’t do it, though I guess




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Not the same thing. The Mueller report found numerous interactions with the Russians including that thing where the campaign director shared internal polling data. It's not a "there was nothing" scenario.

There are indeed situation in which one can say "nothing at all was found to indicate." This is not one of them.
Precisely the same thing.


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