The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Agreed Ibanez. I'm simply stating that for people my age (and younger), the interconnected world didn't just shape how we communicate, but it shaped how we view social issues and economics as well.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by ∞∞∞ »

89Hen wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Misguided or not - if it's the will of the people - it's the direction America will take. :twocents:
Time will tell, but you can't say that with certainty (that it's actually the will). The fact that you don't know the difference between charity and socialism tells me you have no clue.
I can't say for certainty, which is why I used "if." There's always a chance that attitudes shift.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:Of course, you can name 1 country who had turned to socialism successfully? Became better off after wards then they were before?
Most successful nations mix democracy, capitalism, and strong social programs supported by higher taxes - paid by everyone including the rich. This provides the benefits of capitalism without excessive wealth inequalities, and provides a better lifestyle for lower-class citizens. So yes, we don't want "socialism" in its purest form; it's a "social democratic" system that millennials fundamentally agree with.

As for naming one nation that turned to socialism successfully: the Soviet Union. It was a backwards society before the revolution, with no infrastructure and a low life expectancy. Within decades they industrialized faster than any nation before, had one of the most educated societies in history, and their life expectancy rivaled the US. They also helped defeat the Nazis, went to space, and became a superpower.

Of course it was mismanaged, but it's something which can easily befall any capitalist nation (and has).
Holy, CHRIST. If the Soviet Union is your shining example, you should just shut up right now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by ∞∞∞ »

AZGrizFan wrote:Holy, CHRIST. If the Soviet Union is your shining example, you should just shut up right now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Were the Russians better off before the Bolshevik Revolution or afterwards? You can argue capitalism would have had better results, but he asked which nation benefited from implementing socialism.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:Holy, CHRIST. If the Soviet Union is your shining example, you should just shut up right now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Were the Russians better off before the Bolshevik Revolution or afterwards? You can argue capitalism would have had better results, but he asked which nation benefited from implementing socialism.
I'm not sure they were better off afterwards.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by Winterborn »

∞∞∞ wrote:Agreed Ibanez. I'm simply stating that for people my age (and younger), the interconnected world didn't just shape how we communicate, but it shaped how we view social issues and economics as well.
And that is not necessarily true either. I have family members and met some of my brothers friends (he is 20) that want nothing to do with the social issues and the economics you espouse. And I know he is not alone. They know socialism and all the trappings of a handout society costs money and they would rather be just left alone to do what they want with the money they earned then pay for some person somewhere to collect a check.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by 89Hen »

Winterborn wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote:Agreed Ibanez. I'm simply stating that for people my age (and younger), the interconnected world didn't just shape how we communicate, but it shaped how we view social issues and economics as well.
And that is not necessarily true either. I have family members and met some of my brothers friends (he is 20) that want nothing to do with the social issues and the economics you espouse. And I know he is not alone. They know socialism and all the trappings of a handout society costs money and they would rather be just left alone to do what they want with the money they earned then pay for some person somewhere to collect a check.
Trip, I swear I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I wonder if your lack of family's experience in the US long term has led you to your confused economic beliefs. I'm not trying to say that first generation folks shouldn't have an opinion or a say, but I do think you're more the outlier than the mainstream. Certainly on this board you are. I can't imagine you being first generation not having an impact on the way you view things. I'm only second generation, but my father was born in the US in 1927. He saw the great depression, WWII (was in it), segregation, women's rights movement, Vietnam, etc... I learned an awful lot from him. And keep in mind that both my parents were VERY liberal Democrats, so it has less to do with politics than basic economics.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by 93henfan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:Holy, CHRIST. If the Soviet Union is your shining example, you should just shut up right now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Were the Russians better off before the Bolshevik Revolution or afterwards? You can argue capitalism would have had better results, but he asked which nation benefited from implementing socialism.
The Russian Empire produced this author, who lived through the Revolution, escaped the Soviet Union at 26, and spent a lifetime railing against its system of government: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by Bisonfanatical »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:Of course, you can name 1 country who had turned to socialism successfully? Became better off after wards then they were before?
Most successful nations mix democracy, capitalism, and strong social programs supported by higher taxes - paid by everyone including the rich. This provides the benefits of capitalism without excessive wealth inequalities, and provides a better lifestyle for lower-class citizens. So yes, we don't want "socialism" in its purest form; it's a "social democratic" system that millennials fundamentally agree with.

As for naming one nation that turned to socialism successfully: the Soviet Union. It was a backwards society before the revolution, with no infrastructure and a low life expectancy. Within decades they industrialized faster than any nation before, had one of the most educated societies in history, and their life expectancy rivaled the US. They also helped defeat the Nazis, went to space, and became a superpower.

Of course it was mismanaged, but it's something which can easily befall any capitalist nation (and has).
Others have different ideas,


Socialism can exist within countries as an overall economic system or within factions thereof such as corporations, healthcare, public education, and education.

Countries cannot be wholly defined as socialist if they have not declared themselves as such in a constitution or through their national name. Throughout history socialism may have been practiced in many countries but the country itself has not been labeled as socialist.
Countries Declared As Socialist

People’s Democratic Republic of Algeria
Republic of India
United Republic of Tanzania
Republic of Angola
Portuguese Republic
People’s Republic of Bangladesh
Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka
Cooperative Republic of Guyana
Republic of Mozambique


It goes on to say;


Socialism within a country’s economic systems, healthcare, education, corporations or other factions exist in these examples:

The FORMER Soviet Union is an example of a socialist system.

The Mondragon Corporation, a federation of co-ops that currently employs 85,066 people. It is in the Basque region.
A bakery pays all staff the same amount of money based on the profitability of the business. Workers vote to make business decisions.

Cuba is an example of a socialist nation. Its economy is state run and it lacks a stock exchange. Healthcare and education are all completely managed and administered by the government.
The country of North Korea is a socialist state, lacking a stock exchange, supporting many social programs, and the economy is state-run.
Vietnam’s economy is largely state-run and can therefore be considered to be following socialist policies.
China has elements of socialism that remain despite having eliminated socialized healthcare. The economy is still state-run.
Venezuela’s government provides myriad social programs and can be considered a socialist state.

Blah Blah

In a nut shell, socialist countries are not superior to capitalist countries by any comparitave analysis.
Historically, there is incredible blood shed when a country becomes a socialist country, a purging of the other party.
As the article points out.
Russia is a poor example of a socialist country unless you are talking about the old soviet union. Even China has been moving at a snails pace away from being totally socialistic

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

89Hen wrote:
Winterborn wrote:
And that is not necessarily true either. I have family members and met some of my brothers friends (he is 20) that want nothing to do with the social issues and the economics you espouse. And I know he is not alone. They know socialism and all the trappings of a handout society costs money and they would rather be just left alone to do what they want with the money they earned then pay for some person somewhere to collect a check.
Trip, I swear I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I wonder if your lack of family's experience in the US long term has led you to your confused economic beliefs. I'm not trying to say that first generation folks shouldn't have an opinion or a say, but I do think you're more the outlier than the mainstream. Certainly on this board you are. I can't imagine you being first generation not having an impact on the way you view things. I'm only second generation, but my father was born in the US in 1927. He saw the great depression, WWII (was in it), segregation, women's rights movement, Vietnam, etc... I learned an awful lot from him. And keep in mind that both my parents were VERY liberal Democrats, so it has less to do with politics than basic economics.
I doubt it as my mom couldn't care about politics and my father is a business owner who idolizes Reagan, although he's left the GOP since Trump's election and thinks the GOP has lost its morality and compassion.

Anyways, my economic opinions might be an outlier here but it's certainly representative of a large swath of Americans (this place is also a poor representation of the nation's demographic). More than anything, it's been shaped by the great recession, the War on Terror, the opinions of my friends, the liberal views of where I've grown up, seeing the excesses of rich people (including liberals), and what I've seen from volunteer work.

And honestly, I don't think it's some crazy opinion to want to tax richer people and companies at a higher rate, significantly reduce the defense budget, and invest into infrastructure, renewable energy, education, and healthcare. The rich will still be rich, but a little less so; I'm not advocating that we take 500K from a millionaire to give to the bum who won't get off his couch.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote:
89Hen wrote: Trip, I swear I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I wonder if your lack of family's experience in the US long term has led you to your confused economic beliefs. I'm not trying to say that first generation folks shouldn't have an opinion or a say, but I do think you're more the outlier than the mainstream. Certainly on this board you are. I can't imagine you being first generation not having an impact on the way you view things. I'm only second generation, but my father was born in the US in 1927. He saw the great depression, WWII (was in it), segregation, women's rights movement, Vietnam, etc... I learned an awful lot from him. And keep in mind that both my parents were VERY liberal Democrats, so it has less to do with politics than basic economics.
I doubt it as my mom couldn't care about politics and my father is a business owner who idolizes Reagan, although he's left the GOP since Trump's election and thinks the GOP has lost its morality and compassion.

Anyways, my economic opinions might be an outlier here but it's certainly representative of a large swath of Americans (this place is also a poor represention of demographics). More than anything, it's been shaped by the great recession, the War on Terror, the opinions of my friends, the liberal views of where I've grown up, seeing the excesses of rich people (including liberals), and what I've seen from my volunteer work.

And honestly, I don't think it's some crazy opinion to want to tax richer people at a higher rate, significantly reduce the defense budget, and invest into infrastructure, renewable energy, education, and healthcare. The rich will still be rich; I'm not advocating that we take 500K from a millionaire to give to the bum who won't get off his couch.
So you want the rich to pay for most of the stuff? I've got some bad news for you kid... they already do. :lol:

I agree this board is a bad demographic, but we do have a lot of differing opinions on politics and economics, but you are an outlier, and for good reason.

Hating on the "excesses of rich people" is a very juvenile outlook IMO.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:I can currently pay $32.70 an hour and nobody will work for it. I am flying 2 people in from Arizona and Colorado to work for that slave wage.
This phrase makes zero sense.

And 89 - my generation's definition of socialism is not your generation's definition. Most millennials (including myself) want a capitalist system, but one which doesn't disproportionately funnel money to the top. We can recognize laziness, but we can also recognize when the system is not fair.

You also have to realize we've grown up with social media and a shared economy (crowdfunding, ride-sharing, co-working, etc). So sharing in general doesn't really phase the stereotypical millennial. If anything, it's a very fundamental part of our lives and as such, a fundamental part of our politics.
It makes 100% sense because I can't find any of you lazy fuckers to work for that much money.

I literally have to search other states and pay to fly people that want to work here. (both off these people are 40+) That costs me money that I could use for even higher wages or bonuses, but you not owning or running a business wouldn't know that.

Keep trying to fool the younger people with your idiotnomics. It's not gonna fly in the real world

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
89Hen wrote:I think that post pretty sums up your misguided views pretty neatly. What's crazy is I thought you were 24. At 29 you should be more tuned in to the real world, but alas, you're not.
Misguided or not - if it's the will of the people - it's the direction America will take. :twocents:
Not on my watch you better plant more trees......

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

The fact is fellas..... Trip is right and the other 30 of us are all wrong...........its not just him it's us.

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Re: The Official

Post by BDKJMU »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Winterborn wrote:
Agree. I care more about what happens that what he says.
But but but but those TWEETS!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:
Yep. I care more about what Trump & people within his admin do, than what Trumps blurts out & tweets. If you ignore everything Trump has said and tweeted, and just look at what’s been done by him & people within his admin, the results have been good..

Actions speak louder than words (& tweets)... :nod:
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

∞∞∞ wrote:Remember when unemployment was low under Obama but the GOP dismissed it by saying large swaths of Americans dropped out of the workforce and most new jobs were low-paying?

I guess it's all sunshine and rainbows now.
Because under Obama people were dropping out of the workforce. Now people are rejoining the workforce. #s released last week said unemployment remained at 3.9%, but 201,000 jobs were added. That means around 200k people rejoined the workforce.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official

Post by BDKJMU »

∞∞∞ wrote:
89Hen wrote:I think that post pretty sums up your misguided views pretty neatly. What's crazy is I thought you were 24. At 29 you should be more tuned in to the real world, but alas, you're not.
Misguided or not - if it's the will of the people - it's the direction America will take. :twocents:
No its not. Its the will of the people in your bubble. You’re bubble isnt represenative of the country as a whole.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

∞∞∞ wrote:
89Hen wrote: Trip, I swear I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I wonder if your lack of family's experience in the US long term has led you to your confused economic beliefs. I'm not trying to say that first generation folks shouldn't have an opinion or a say, but I do think you're more the outlier than the mainstream. Certainly on this board you are. I can't imagine you being first generation not having an impact on the way you view things. I'm only second generation, but my father was born in the US in 1927. He saw the great depression, WWII (was in it), segregation, women's rights movement, Vietnam, etc... I learned an awful lot from him. And keep in mind that both my parents were VERY liberal Democrats, so it has less to do with politics than basic economics.
I doubt it as my mom couldn't care about politics and my father is a business owner who idolizes Reagan, although he's left the GOP since Trump's election and thinks the GOP has lost its morality and compassion.

Anyways, my economic opinions might be an outlier here but it's certainly representative of a large swath of Americans (this place is also a poor representation of the nation's demographic). More than anything, it's been shaped by the great recession, the War on Terror, the opinions of my friends, the liberal views of where I've grown up, seeing the excesses of rich people (including liberals), and what I've seen from volunteer work.

And honestly, I don't think it's some crazy opinion to want to tax richer people and companies at a higher rate, significantly reduce the defense budget, and invest into infrastructure, renewable energy, education, and healthcare. The rich will still be rich, but a little less so; I'm not advocating that we take 500K from a millionaire to give to the bum who won't get off his couch.
That is already being done, while close to half have zero income tax liability. The US doesnt have a revenue problem. It has a spending problem.
I agree on reduce the defense budget significantly (through overseas base closures & fixing the procurement system, which is probably a pipe dream).
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by css75 »

∞∞∞ wrote:Flaggy - there's been a fundamental shift in how Americans view the relationship between Capitalism and Socialism, especially with people my age and younger.

You and the GOP can argue the merits of the current economic system all you want, but at a purely democratic level, these views continue to represent less and less people every year.

I ask you this:

If 35% of voters want America to be purely capitalist, 60% want stronger socialist elements mixed with capitalism, and another 5% want pure socialism...from the perspective of a representative democracy, which wins out? If people don't want capitalism, do you force it? If so, this seems undemocratic.

We haven't reached that point yet, but voting trends are moving this way. And the GOP needs to adapt.
And hopefully when that day occurs, my ashes will have been scattered. I do feel for the kids and grandkids.


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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

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Bottom line is that as we type now America...or the United States...is not greater now than it was on the day before Trump got elected. It's been diminished. Humiliated. Embarrassed.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
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Could I ever be a star?

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

JohnStOnge wrote:Bottom line is that as we type now America...or the United States...is not greater now than it was on the day before Trump got elected. It's been diminished. Humiliated. Embarrassed.
Like Reagan before him, the GOP will be associated with Trump for the next 30 years.

It's his party now.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

∞∞∞ wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Bottom line is that as we type now America...or the United States...is not greater now than it was on the day before Trump got elected. It's been diminished. Humiliated. Embarrassed.
Like Reagan before him, the GOP will be associated with Trump for the next 30 years.

It's his party now.
I think Reagan was a positive force for them though. Trump is not. The Trump thing is destroying the credibility of the Republican Party in particular and the Conservative Movement in general.

I don't like saying that because I am a Conservative. But it's the truth.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

JohnStOnge wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Like Reagan before him, the GOP will be associated with Trump for the next 30 years.

It's his party now.
I think Reagan was a positive force for them though. Trump is not. The Trump thing is destroying the credibility of the Republican Party in particular and the Conservative Movement in general.

I don't like saying that because I am a Conservative. But it's the truth.
I've mentioned it before, but my father is like you. He's been a Republican as long as I can remember, donated to the party, idolized Reagan (and still does), and is completely dismayed to see that Trump now represents an organization he was so proud of. Republicans have sold their soul for short-term gains.

But let's be frank, this was the natural "next step" the way the GOP's behaved since the rise of right-wing radio, Fox News, Breitbart, and the Tea Party. The party is a caricature of its former self.
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Re: The Official "Making America Great Again" Thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
I think Reagan was a positive force for them though. Trump is not. The Trump thing is destroying the credibility of the Republican Party in particular and the Conservative Movement in general.

I don't like saying that because I am a Conservative. But it's the truth.
I've mentioned it before, but my father is like you. He's been a Republican as long as I can remember, donated to the party, idolized Reagan (and still does), and is completely dismayed to see that Trump now represents an organization he was so proud of. Republicans have sold their soul for short-term gains.

But let's be frank, this was the natural "next step" the way the GOP's behaved since the rise of right-wing radio, Fox News, Breitbart, and the Tea Party. The party is a caricature of its former self.
I find it hilariously ironic that you can post that drivel with a straight face, yet not see the fact that the EXACT SAME THING could be said about the democrat party. THAT continued blindness and movement to the Uber, Uber left is what gets idiots like Trump elected.
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