Brexit Thread

[93henfan]

hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

You you're not a proponent of the popular vote?

[Skjellyfetti]

Sounds familiar.

I agree, and I like I said before, it's the problem we face when status quo globalism fails to solve the repercussions of status quo globalism. People will look for answers elsewhere, no matter how detestable that elsewhere is.

It's also > 2 years after the vote(s).

It's harder for politicians to agree on Brexit terms... because none of the options are popular or good for the UK... despite the people voting for it.

And, since I didn't get a Prof. Ganny lecture I'll elaborate on the Wall / Shutdown comparison. The Wall isn't popular. Despite the people voting for the candidate who made it central to his campaign.

I think in both cases the political paralysis is because of the public's buyer's remorse. It's made worse in the UK because of their March deadline. We missed our funding deadline... but, I don't think the repercussions will be as long lasting. Assuming the federal government opens back up someday.

[∞∞∞]

hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

You you're not a proponent of the popular vote?

It would have made sense from a democratic point-of-view if implemented immediately. It doesn't make sense three years later when polling shows double-digit support for staying in the EU.

Even if the UK did leave in 2016 or 2017, I think they would have eventually rejoined as new generations took over in leadership positions. Young people have particularly benefited from EU.

[GannonFan]

I agree, and I like I said before, it's the problem we face when status quo globalism fails to solve the repercussions of status quo globalism. People will look for answers elsewhere, no matter how detestable that elsewhere is.

Nationalists are doing a particularly bad job selling the concept to people like me who are experiencing nationalist agendas for the first time ever. Seems like a bunch of assholery and chaos.

Glad May's Brexit deal was defeated; hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

Of course, you're also of the mindset that your generation has been screwed by the globalism agenda that has played a part in making jobs for your generation, especially jobs to pay the large college loans you took out, hard to come by. The conflict in your head must be significant. Ferris Bueller was way ahead of his time with his idea that people shouldn't believe in an -ism.

[∞∞∞]

Nationalists are doing a particularly bad job selling the concept to people like me who are experiencing nationalist agendas for the first time ever. Seems like a bunch of assholery and chaos.

Glad May's Brexit deal was defeated; hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

Of course, you're also of the mindset that your generation has been screwed by the globalism agenda that has played a part in making jobs for your generation, especially jobs to pay the large college loans you took out, hard to come by. The conflict in your head must be significant. Ferris Bueller was way ahead of his time with his idea that people shouldn't believe in an -ism.

Not globalization, just the policies which have misused its benefits.

Try again...

[CID1990]

Of course, you're also of the mindset that your generation has been screwed by the globalism agenda that has played a part in making jobs for your generation, especially jobs to pay the large college loans you took out, hard to come by. The conflict in your head must be significant. Ferris Bueller was way ahead of his time with his idea that people shouldn't believe in an -ism.

Not globalization, just the policies which have misused its benefits.

Try again...

Here you go Ganny -

It’s that “they just didn’t do it correctly” trope

It’s going to be the mantra of the 21st century

[SDHornet]

I agree, and I like I said before, it's the problem we face when status quo globalism fails to solve the repercussions of status quo globalism. People will look for answers elsewhere, no matter how detestable that elsewhere is.

Nationalists are doing a particularly bad job selling the concept to people like me who are experiencing nationalist agendas for the first time ever. Seems like a bunch of assholery and chaos.

Glad May's Brexit deal was defeated; hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

Lots of Nationalism going on in Eastern Europe (thanks to the migration from the ME for that). Also Brazil seems to be getting a taste too...they probably want to ensure that don't end up like their failed state brethren to the north.

Interesting times indeed.

[CID1990]

Nationalists are doing a particularly bad job selling the concept to people like me who are experiencing nationalist agendas for the first time ever. Seems like a bunch of assholery and chaos.

Glad May's Brexit deal was defeated; hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

Lots of Nationalism going on in Eastern Europe (thanks to the migration from the ME for that). Also Brazil seems to be getting a taste too...they probably want to ensure that don't end up like their failed state brethren to the north.

Interesting times indeed.

We can't get along except at the point of a gun

We're the worst apes


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[SDHornet]

You you're not a proponent of the popular vote?

It would have made sense from a democratic point-of-view if implemented immediately. It doesn't make sense three years later when polling shows double-digit support for staying in the EU.

Even if the UK did leave in 2016 or 2017, I think they would have eventually rejoined as new generations took over in leadership positions. Young people have particularly benefited from EU.

The irony of the Brexit issue is that the EU needs England more than England needs the EU. Most of the EU countries are "takers", while England and a couple others (Germany, France, and maybe someone else) carries most of the weight financially.

The last Theresa May deal failed because it essentially kept England in the EU without a seat at the table. It would have been disastrous for them if approved. No idea where it goes from here but it should be fun to watch.

[Grizalltheway]

Nationalists are doing a particularly bad job selling the concept to people like me who are experiencing nationalist agendas for the first time ever. Seems like a bunch of assholery and chaos.

Glad May's Brexit deal was defeated; hopefully the UK ends up staying in the EU.

Lots of Nationalism going on in Eastern Europe (thanks to the migration from the ME for that). Also Brazil seems to be getting a taste too...they probably want to ensure that don't end up like their failed state brethren to the north.

Interesting times indeed.

Yeah, another military dictatorship is just what Brazil needs.

[Grizalltheway]

It would have made sense from a democratic point-of-view if implemented immediately. It doesn't make sense three years later when polling shows double-digit support for staying in the EU.

Even if the UK did leave in 2016 or 2017, I think they would have eventually rejoined as new generations took over in leadership positions. Young people have particularly benefited from EU.

The irony of the Brexit issue is that the EU needs England more than England needs the EU. Most of the EU countries are "takers", while England and a couple others (Germany, France, and maybe someone else) carries most of the weight financially.

The last Theresa May deal failed because it essentially kept England in the EU without a seat at the table. It would have been disastrous for them if approved. No idea where it goes from here but it should be fun to watch.

You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.

[SDHornet]

Lots of Nationalism going on in Eastern Europe (thanks to the migration from the ME for that). Also Brazil seems to be getting a taste too...they probably want to ensure that don't end up like their failed state brethren to the north.

Interesting times indeed.

Yeah, another military dictatorship is just what Brazil needs.

Sometimes shit works, take Egypt for example.

[GannonFan]

Of course, you're also of the mindset that your generation has been screwed by the globalism agenda that has played a part in making jobs for your generation, especially jobs to pay the large college loans you took out, hard to come by. The conflict in your head must be significant. Ferris Bueller was way ahead of his time with his idea that people shouldn't believe in an -ism.

Not globalization, just the policies which have misused its benefits.

Try again...

Hey, you're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm a free-trader and a big proponent of globalism in almost all of its forms. But you have to have your head in the sand (or in your parent's basement) if you don't appreciate the unanswered questions of what to do with the wide swaths of people that could be economic casualties of globalization. Politicians like to talk about retraining programs and the such to help workers who are suddenly no longer necessary at what they do once jobs are relocated to a lower cost region (and typically out of country) but that's just politician-speak to gloss over a problem that doesn't have a very good answer right now. What do you do with people who don't have the skills or the means to be successful in the new globalized world and how do governments deal with that in the long term. And before you snidely throw out one of your typical "old people should just die off" tropes, remember, it's your generation that is not even getting started because they too are too many for the jobs that are out there.

Like I said, there's no doubt that free trade and globalization are the ways to go and there's no real turning back on that (despite what kalmie would like to think with his Trumpian economic views), but there's also no doubt that we don't have all the answers of how to work out the problems that are and will arise in that reality.

[∞∞∞]

Universal Basic Income.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Universal Basic Income.

We already have that its called a fucking job!

[89Hen]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezra ... ad752245e1

[GannonFan]

Universal Basic Income.

Awesome. Explain.

How much does everyone get? How does it tie into inflation? Do rich people get a UBI too? What if someone spends their UBI before they get their next UBI payment and needs money? What if on the UBI a person can't afford a cell phone, cable (or the cost of cord cutting), a car, gas for the car, etc? How do we factor children into this? Will people on UBI be allowed to have children? Will housing prices be restricted so as not to greatly exceed the reach of people who just receive the UBI and nothing more? Where will that housing be? Estimates are that a basic UBI would be at least a 50% increase in annual government expenditures, at least at the beginning. Do we cut anything or just print the money? If certain job sectors begin to go understaffed how do we compensate?

[Skjellyfetti]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Neg ... meTax.html

[GannonFan]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Neg ... meTax.html

Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:

The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.

Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.

[JohnStOnge]

Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.

[Ivytalk]

Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.

Find some way to blame Trump.

[CID1990]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Neg ... meTax.html

Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:

The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.

Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.

Ganny - good luck

the world is a simple thing to solve when you aren't the one tasked with solving it


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[JohnStOnge]

Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.

Find some way to blame Trump.

That one wasn't his fault. But I think the sociological phenomenon that led to it is similar in certain respects to the one that led to us ending up with Trump as President.

[CID1990]

Find some way to blame Trump.

That one wasn't his fault. But I think the sociological phenomenon that led to it is similar in certain respects to the one that led to us ending up with Trump as President.

You are correct on that one -

Brexit and Trump are symptoms of diseases many people do not want to confront

There's a lot of that right here in this here thread

[Pwns]

Brexit certainly doesn't look sexy right now, but what happens if we have another global financial crisis? Basically Germany and France will be more-or-less on their own to help prop up countries like Portugal, Spain, Greece, and maybe even Italy while the UK will just sit back and watch the whole spectacle.

Between that consideration and mass assimilation-less migration that has created political polarization, I think EU dissolution is inevitable. Could be 5 years or 20 years, but it'll happen. Heck Sweden seems to be quietly weighing their options for a "Swexit" now, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.