Walt Whitman is a....

[Col Hogan]

...Another target of the infamous Topeka Gay-bashing Church...

So is the funeral of a family that died in a murder/suicide incident...

Members of the Topeka KS based Westboro Baptist Church protested...at least they tried to protest...outside Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda MD yesterday, claiming the American poet was gay...

Got the students riled up, too...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03461.html

[dbackjon]

I seriously hate those idiots

[dbackjon]

But those students give me great hope for the future...

[grizzaholic]

I seriously hate those idiots

Why hasn't anyone killed these fools yet?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I seriously hate those idiots

Why hasn't anyone killed these fools yet?

They came to Fargo in either 02 or 03 and I realized why... their hysteria shows more clearly than any advocacy by gay rights groups the absurdity of their hatred. They do almost as much IMO to advance the cause they oppose as the gay rights organizations out there.

btw jon, have you ever seen this?

[youtube][/youtube]

classic

[dbackjon]

I hadn't seen that - classic.

And you are right, TTBF - they are so hateful that it does in many ways help the gay equality movement - they are so in your face with what deep down some people may think, that when it is out in the open like that, people realize how ridiculous and hateful those beliefs are.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

They have their shtick and they believe it, nothing can be done about that. They do their thing to get a reaction and notoriety out of it. I agree with TTBF because I listen to a radio show that has Shirley Phelps Roper on as a guest quite often and they don't try to argue with her but simply let her talk. They ask innocent smart ass questions about the lord saving us all and get her to go on her "You will all burn in hell" type of shit and it is fascinating radio. I come away from it every time just thinking how bad it must be to believe what these people believe in. This group thrives on hatred to fuel their cause. They don't do anything outside of the law in their protests so why should they be killed? I mean I could see it happening by someone that has no control or is so emotional that they themselves lose their mind in a fit of rage. Why let some outside group like this get their way in that regard? Bad taste is not punishable by death in this country. After listening to her talk for hours at this point, I really feel sorry for the lives they chose lead and they have driven me to more open mindedness as TTBF alluded to. Their life is their punishment.

What if gay groups did like the Frat house did and took a page out the Westboro BC book and just staged a peaceful gay rally around the Westboro compound once a week or whenever they were around the compound? Acting completely peaceful and not going there with the hate and venom? Just had a rally/party outside the Westboro Compound every once in a while? When the Ropers comes out in the morning to take the kids to school the gay couples could just give their partners a kiss and dance or whatever without the complete vulgarity and I would bet that would disturb the Westboro BC as much if not more than the Chuch disturbs others. They don't like gay people so it would be hysterical to me if the Westboro BC suddenly became a like a magnet to gay people that showed up wherever the were carrying their own signs that read "God loves Fags". It would at least be cool to see which group would be more likely to give in first?

[Col Hogan]

They have their shtick and they believe it, nothing can be done about that. They do their thing to get a reaction and notoriety out of it. I agree with TTBF because I listen to a radio show that has Shirley Phelps Roper on as a guest quite often and they don't try to argue with her but simply let her talk. They ask innocent smart ass questions about the lord saving us all and get her to go on her "You will all burn in hell" type of poop and it is fascinating radio. I come away from it every time just thinking how bad it must be to believe what these people believe in. This group thrives on hatred to fuel their cause. They don't do anything outside of the law in their protests so why should they be killed? I mean I could see it happening by someone that has no control or is so emotional that they themselves lose their mind in a fit of rage. Why let some outside group like this get their way in that regard? Bad taste is not punishable by death in this country. After listening to her talk for hours at this point, I really feel sorry for the lives they chose lead and they have driven me to more open mindedness as TTBF alluded to. Their life is their punishment.

What if gay groups did like the Frat house did and took a page out the Westboro BC book and just staged a peaceful gay rally around the Westboro compound once a week or whenever they were around the compound? Acting completely peaceful and not going there with the hate and venom? Just had a rally/party outside the Westboro Compound every once in a while? When the Ropers comes out in the morning to take the kids to school the gay couples could just give their partners a kiss and dance or whatever without the complete vulgarity and I would bet that would disturb the Westboro BC as much if not more than the Chuch disturbs others. They don't like gay people so it would be hysterical to me if the Westboro BC suddenly became a like a magnet to gay people that showed up wherever the were carrying their own signs that read "God loves Fags". It would at least be cool to see which group would be more likely to give in first?

Ursus, going all Ghandi on us...





Actually, not a bad idea...

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I hadn't seen that - classic.

And you are right, TTBF - they are so hateful that it does in many ways help the gay equality movement - they are so in your face with what deep down some people may think, that when it is out in the open like that, people realize how ridiculous and hateful those beliefs are.

That is exactly the problem that GLBT community creates for itself as well though dback. You could actually take the last two sentences and change the characters in it and you would have the reason that the gay and lesbian community has trouble coming across as reasonable to the general public. Some of the gay pride get togethers I have seen do nothing but drive some people away as well.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Ursus, going all Ghandi on us...





Actually, not a bad idea...

Hey man I use the brain first and if that don't work bring out the fighting tools.

It's should just be obvious to us all by now that these people aren't gonna go away by doing what we're doing and just hating them.

[BlueHen86]

What if gay groups did like the Frat house did and took a page out the Westboro BC book and just staged a peaceful gay rally around the Westboro compound once a week or whenever they were around the compound? Acting completely peaceful and not going there with the hate and venom? Just had a rally/party outside the Westboro Compound every once in a while? When the Ropers comes out in the morning to take the kids to school the gay couples could just give their partners a kiss and dance or whatever without the complete vulgarity and I would bet that would disturb the Westboro BC as much if not more than the Chuch disturbs others. They don't like gay people so it would be hysterical to me if the Westboro BC suddenly became a like a magnet to gay people that showed up wherever the were carrying their own signs that read "God loves Fags". It would at least be cool to see which group would be more likely to give in first?

That is a great idea.

How about a sign that reads "God hates hate"

[BlueHen86]

Ursus, going all Ghandi on us...





Actually, not a bad idea...

Hey man I use the brain first and if that don't work bring out the fighting tools.

It's should just be obvious to us all by now that these people aren't gonna go away by doing what we're doing and just hating them.

You're right they are not going to go away. The best thing to do is to completely ignore them. I love the counter-protests, but they probably aren't helping.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Hey man I use the brain first and if that don't work bring out the fighting tools.

It's should just be obvious to us all by now that these people aren't gonna go away by doing what we're doing and just hating them.

You're right they are not going to go away. The best thing to do is to completely ignore them. I love the counter-protests, but they probably aren't helping.

No but knowing that the activities they despise the most will be attending their events or their compund may cool them off a bit. Think about the fact that they will realize very quickly that they will be forever linked to the gay community and they will actually have to see what they despise on a very consistent basis. If they had to put up with a peaceful "gay Woodstock" wherever they went they may decide that ain't working out like they had thought.

Picture this scenario:
Dback decides he's gonna be a part of a "Gleeful Dead" show that goes everywhere they do.

Dback: Good morning Fred, good morning Shirley
Fred: Hey Jon, how's it going today?
Dback: Ah, it's a great day to be alive ain't it Fred? Look at this crowd man, love is in the air everywhere you look!"
Fred: Jon, how many times do I have to tell ya? God hates fags!
Dback: I know Fred you tell me every morning. Well we better get after it.
Fred: Yeah. Can I get you a cup of coffee?
Dback: Love one Fred, make sure you sure you throw some creamer in there the way I like it.
Fred: Jon I'm not gonna throw it on my face first, you totally got me on that one. (chuckles to himself)

(dback takes the cup of coffee from Fred with a big smile on his face and turns to walk away, after a few step dback turns his gaze back to Fred.)

Dback: By the way Fred...you look mighty fine in those jeans today brother...
Fred: Thanks Jon, have a good one bro.

aaaaand SCENE

[native]

You're right they are not going to go away. The best thing to do is to completely ignore them. I love the counter-protests, but they probably aren't helping.

No but knowing that the activities they despise the most will be attending their events or their compund may cool them off a bit. Think about the fact that they will realize very quickly that they will be forever linked to the gay community and they will actually have to see what they despise on a very consistent basis. If they had to put up with a peaceful "gay Woodstock" wherever they went they may decide that ain't working out like they had thought.

Picture this scenario:
Dback decides he's gonna be a part of a "Gleeful Dead" show that goes everywhere they do.

Dback: Good morning Fred, good morning Shirley
Fred: Hey Jon, how's it going today?
Dback: Ah, it's a great day to be alive ain't it Fred? Look at this crowd man, love is in the air everywhere you look!"
Fred: Jon, how many times do I have to tell ya? God hates fags!
Dback: I know Fred you tell me every morning. Well we better get after it.
Fred: Yeah. Can I get you a cup of coffee?
Dback: Love one Fred, make sure you sure you throw some creamer in there the way I like it.
Fred: Jon I'm not gonna throw it on my face first, you totally got me on that one. (chuckles to himself)

(dback takes the cup of coffee from Fred with a big smile on his face and turns to walk away, after a few step dback turns his gaze back to Fred.)

Dback: By the way Fred...you look mighty fine in those jeans today brother...
Fred: Thanks Jon, have a good one bro.

aaaaand SCENE

[native]

...Another target of the infamous Topeka Gay-bashing Church...

So is the funeral of a family that died in a murder/suicide incident...

Members of the Topeka KS based Westboro Baptist Church protested...at least they tried to protest...outside Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda MD yesterday, claiming the American poet was gay...

Got the students riled up, too...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03461.html

Their first sin is the extreme hatred.

Their second sin is cramming their point of veiw down others' throats... um ...er... so to speak

[BlueHen86]

You're right they are not going to go away. The best thing to do is to completely ignore them. I love the counter-protests, but they probably aren't helping.

No but knowing that the activities they despise the most will be attending their events or their compund may cool them off a bit. Think about the fact that they will realize very quickly that they will be forever linked to the gay community and they will actually have to see what they despise on a very consistent basis. If they had to put up with a peaceful "gay Woodstock" wherever they went they may decide that ain't working out like they had thought.

Better yet - have gay people join the church!

[TwinTownBisonFan]

as was alluded to before the "pride" movement is something i have my quarrels with. Pride festivals have, especially in open and tolerant places become totally unnecessary. I think they hurt the movement, and I've said so to their organizers. Dudes in gold lamme speedos covered in baby oil and body glitter don't send the message that "we are regular everyday people"... it furthers the nasty stereotypes that persist, and can inhibit many straight folks from supporting their cause.

That is a great idea.

How about a sign that reads "God hates hate"

that was a sign that i know has been present at a number of counter protests.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

No but knowing that the activities they despise the most will be attending their events or their compund may cool them off a bit. Think about the fact that they will realize very quickly that they will be forever linked to the gay community and they will actually have to see what they despise on a very consistent basis. If they had to put up with a peaceful "gay Woodstock" wherever they went they may decide that ain't working out like they had thought.

Better yet - have gay people join the church!

Don't think you can join the church unless you're a family member or marry into it. If the gay marriage thing works out in Kansas then some dude is gonna have to start putting the hard press on ol' Fred to become a member I think.

[dbackjon]

as was alluded to before the "pride" movement is something i have my quarrels with. Pride festivals have, especially in open and tolerant places become totally unnecessary. I think they hurt the movement, and I've said so to their organizers. Dudes in gold lamme speedos covered in baby oil and body glitter don't send the message that "we are regular everyday people"... it furthers the nasty stereotypes that persist, and can inhibit many straight folks from supporting their cause.

I am going to take HUGE exception to this post, and frankly, you have no idea what you are really talking about when it comes to this.

There is not a SINGLE completely open and tolerant place in this country. Even in San Francisco, there are big pockets of homophobia and hatred. As long as gays and lesbians are treated unequally, there is a need for pride festivals.

Pride festivals are not for straights, although many straights attend. They are designed for gays and lesbians to show that they are NOT ASHAMED of who they are. They were in response to anti-gay discrimination, hatred and violence that STILL EXISTS everywhere.

Some gays take the opportunity to let their hair down, so to speak. A gay pride parade/festival is part Mardi Gras, part Activism, part entertainment. Of course, there are 100 "normally dressed" people at a pride event for every guy in gold lame, but showing a group of guys that could be at any event doesn't make good press, so of course the media is going to show what they think makes attention grabbing coverage.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

as was alluded to before the "pride" movement is something i have my quarrels with. Pride festivals have, especially in open and tolerant places become totally unnecessary. I think they hurt the movement, and I've said so to their organizers. Dudes in gold lamme speedos covered in baby oil and body glitter don't send the message that "we are regular everyday people"... it furthers the nasty stereotypes that persist, and can inhibit many straight folks from supporting their cause.

I am going to take HUGE exception to this post, and frankly, you have no idea what you are really talking about when it comes to this.

There is not a SINGLE completely open and tolerant place in this country. Even in San Francisco, there are big pockets of homophobia and hatred. As long as gays and lesbians are treated unequally, there is a need for pride festivals.

Pride festivals are not for straights, although many straights attend. They are designed for gays and lesbians to show that they are NOT ASHAMED of who they are. They were in response to anti-gay discrimination, hatred and violence that STILL EXISTS everywhere.

Some gays take the opportunity to let their hair down, so to speak. A gay pride parade/festival is part Mardi Gras, part Activism, part entertainment. Of course, there are 100 "normally dressed" people at a pride event for every guy in gold lame, but showing a group of guys that could be at any event doesn't make good press, so of course the media is going to show what they think makes attention grabbing coverage.

Look I ain't gonna argue this point with a gay guy as you have a more personal connection to it. What I am gonna do is tell you that it is what it is and the media does what they do with it. Gays know that and if they want to continue to do it then that's their prerogative.

What I am gonna tell you is from the heart. It's flat out fucking off putting to a large part of the public that you are trying to convince that the gay lifestyle is "normal". It doesn't look normal to a lot of those that the gay community could get the backing of. If there was a gay pride parade that did not have that element involved then that would not be what the general population remembered about gay pride parades. I think if the gold drawers and exuberance were not always so "in your face" then it would probably do wonders for the gay community. I guess the strategy depends on what you want the final outcome to be. If you had shown up in Missoula with the gold lamme on do you really think that would have worked out as well as just showing up as the regular guy that you are with an opposing preference as to what drives your libido? The gay community can not have it both ways (the bi community has that cornered) either you want acceptance, or you don't.

[Wedgebuster]

Fred Phelps and his congregation is correct with regards to the wishes of God as it is presented in the Bible, but perhaps his methods are not correct. Many, many issues are of greater importance than the gay issues, primarily because they are sinners per the perfectly written word. Our society has outlawed for no good reason, things that are granted to us faithful followers of Jesus, such as right of chattels being diluted by animal cruelty laws, and the ancient practice of taking younger wives than is allowed by our laws, and even our ancient held beliefs granted by the all powerful to copulate with our nieces and our daughters at anytime of our choosing.























Oh, I almost forgot to add-

[dbackjon]

Ursus/TTBF - I, nor any other self-respecting gay or lesbian needs to be told how to act in order to "gain acceptance" It is VERY INSULTING to do so. Either some one is going to accept us for who we are, Americans, humans, etc, deserving of equality, or not. I suppose we could take your argument further and further, and hide our true being. Hey - I could marry a woman, be miserable, but I would fit in, right?

If anyone is bases unacceptance on a guy in a gold lame pants at a pride parade, they are not going to accept us regardless. Acceptance, I have found, comes from several areas:

1) Personal knowledge. When people I already knew found out I was gay, a lot of minds were changed, because it now was personal. Pride has given many, many gays the courage to come out to family, friends, co-workers. This has changed far more opinions that a few "freaks" have.
2) Passage of time. Support for Gay Marriage is running 60+% in those under 35. Other than some religous bigots (about 20% of the population), gay marriage is no big deal to the youth of this country. The old bigots are dying. Support for gay marriage has been climbing around 2% a year.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Ursus/TTBF - I, nor any other self-respecting gay or lesbian needs to be told how to act in order to "gain acceptance" It is VERY INSULTING to do so. Either some one is going to accept us for who we are, Americans, humans, etc, deserving of equality, or not. I suppose we could take your argument further and further, and hide our true being. Hey - I could marry a woman, be miserable, but I would fit in, right?

If anyone is bases unacceptance on a guy in a gold lame pants at a pride parade, they are not going to accept us regardless. Acceptance, I have found, comes from several areas:

1) Personal knowledge. When people I already knew found out I was gay, a lot of minds were changed, because it now was personal. Pride has given many, many gays the courage to come out to family, friends, co-workers. This has changed far more opinions that a few "freaks" have.
2) Passage of time. Support for Gay Marriage is running 60+% in those under 35. Other than some religous bigots (about 20% of the population), gay marriage is no big deal to the youth of this country. The old bigots are dying. Support for gay marriage has been climbing around 2% a year.

I don't think you're getting what either of us were saying. No one, especially me is telling you to what to do. What I am trying to say (and TTBF is as well I assume) is that your community is in a political fight right now. Since you do care about gay marrieage and so forth, minimizing the numbers of those against this political movement would seem to be primary unless you are content to wait out natural attrition through death of the ol' bigots. As I said the pride factor goes against minimizing that, period. If the pride parade is more important than the other issue at this time then I can understand that. Just seems like a politically unsavvy course to me but I've been wrong a lot so...

It started out about Westboro and I was just trying to point out that some things had some parallels. The only thing that I think you need to apologize for is not having booked my ticket to the LJ challenge yet. I'll be watching my mail box.

[Grizo406]

"Let that which stood in front go behind, let that which was behind advance to the front, let bigots, fools, unclean persons, offer new propositions, let the old propositions be postponed."
-Walt Whitman

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Ursus/TTBF - I, nor any other self-respecting gay or lesbian needs to be told how to act in order to "gain acceptance" It is VERY INSULTING to do so. Either some one is going to accept us for who we are, Americans, humans, etc, deserving of equality, or not. I suppose we could take your argument further and further, and hide our true being. Hey - I could marry a woman, be miserable, but I would fit in, right?

If anyone is bases unacceptance on a guy in a gold lame pants at a pride parade, they are not going to accept us regardless. Acceptance, I have found, comes from several areas:

1) Personal knowledge. When people I already knew found out I was gay, a lot of minds were changed, because it now was personal. Pride has given many, many gays the courage to come out to family, friends, co-workers. This has changed far more opinions that a few "freaks" have.
2) Passage of time. Support for Gay Marriage is running 60+% in those under 35. Other than some religous bigots (about 20% of the population), gay marriage is no big deal to the youth of this country. The old bigots are dying. Support for gay marriage has been climbing around 2% a year.

I don't think you're getting what either of us were saying. No one, especially me is telling you to what to do. What I am trying to say (and TTBF is as well I assume) is that your community is in a political fight right now. Since you do care about gay marrieage and so forth, minimizing the numbers of those against this political movement would seem to be primary unless you are content to wait out natural attrition through death of the ol' bigots. As I said the pride factor goes against minimizing that, period. If the pride parade is more important than the other issue at this time then I can understand that. Just seems like a politically unsavvy course to me but I've been wrong a lot so...

It started out about Westboro and I was just trying to point out that some things had some parallels. The only thing that I think you need to apologize for is not having booked my ticket to the LJ challenge yet. I'll be watching my mail box.

Quoted for agreement.

Jon, I would never presume to tell anyone how to live their life. And I understand the purpose pride festivals serve... but as Ursus said... you're in a political fight... frankly THE political fight. The fight to BE the fight for EQUALITY. part of that fight is convincing those who are not gay that the people seeking these rights are essentially "like them". I am only saying that when you are in a political fight, it's dangerous to give your enemies ammunition... things for them to hold up and say "SEE!!! SEE!!! THEY MEAN TO DESTROY EVERYTHING!"...

the gay rights movement has done a GREAT job in the last 10 years in moving it's cause in to the mainstream. while there is still a lot of ground to gain... a REMARKABLE amount of progress has been made, and in no small part because a lot of pioneering people dared to say "we're really not that different... we want the same things in life..." that's when the movement really started picking up steam, when many straights discovered (frankly to the surprise of many) that gay people were more than the stereotypes that existed about them.

my point is only this... the struggle for civil rights among African-Americans quite frankly came off the rails when their opponents were able to point to the Black Panthers and the black power movement and say "SEE SEE THEY MEAN TO DESTROY EVERYTHING".

I hope that makes sense, and you understand the intent with which it is said... from a political science point of view.